[meteorite-list] Gebel Kamil

From: Galactic Stone and Ironworks <meteoritemike_at_meteoritecentral.com>
Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2011 16:31:42 -0400
Message-ID: <AANLkTikWT34A0rtEfc5Y5q01AYsdWi-aF+EN2VzaPc7X_at_mail.gmail.com>

Hi Jason, Carl, and Curious Onlookers,

As most are aware, I am no expert, I only play one on TV. Comparing
the Egyptian legal system and the US legal system is comparing apples
to tricycles. I have two online friends who have travelled
extensively and lived in Egypt. The stories I have heard are
interesting, sometimes amusing, and sometimes scary. Others on the
List have travelled to Egypt, so they can confirm what is below or
correct me where necessary.

Unless one commits a drug-trafficking offense or a crime against the
regime, the legal system is a matter of who you are, who you know and
how much money you are willing to pay. Legal and human rights
monitors all agree that Egypt's legal system and police were/are some
of the most corruption-prone in the world. Bribery is often expected
and is elevated to an art-form. Whether this dynamic will change
along with the change in regime, remains to be seen.

These stories collaborate what I have read independently on the web
about Egyptian law - which I have tried to research as best I can, in
trying to determine what is legal and what is not, in regards to
meteorite collecting. I've done a lot of digging on the subject (no
pun intended) over the last couple of years and there is little to be
found in the form of "official" or authoritative documents or
explanations of Egyptian law. As Jason mentioned, the LDG situation
was largely inflamed by the export of *human artifacts* and not the
LDG itself, and there is quite a bit of information available on the
web regarding Egypt's official stance towards the trade of artifacts
and antiquities. However, there is nothing about meteorites that I
can find or Google up.

This lack of information on the web concerning meteorites and Egyptian
law does not mean it is "legal" to move them out of the country
per-se. Egyptian authorities, if they are so inclined, can bend an
existing law to cover any perceived offense imaginable. And this goes
back to what I said at the start - breaking Egyptian law is a dicey
thing and how the offender will be dealt with is not a matter of
routine. It depends on who you are, the circumstances, who you know,
and how much money you have. Although there is corruption in US law
enforcement, there is nothing comparable to the systemic and pervasive
corruption seen in Egypt. Breaking the law, and the interpretation of
that law, is a fluid affair in Egypt and not handled strictly "by the
book" or "wink wink" like it is here in the US.

So, in Egypt, the default state of affairs is to defer to the state,
the regime, and the "law". I think this is why we don't see many
Egyptian meteorite dealers operating openly on the web. What's more,
Egyptian citizens are held to different standards than foreign
visitors, or foreign expatriate citizens. It's very complicated, so
most locals just assume that things are kept quiet and handled locally
(washing their own dirty laundry), and if "officials" get involved
(police, military, regime/party) then one defers to the authority of
the state.

In the end, this leaves meteorite collectors outside of Egypt "in the
clear" legally when it comes to owning their specimens. It is not
against US law to own an Egyptian meteorite that was "legally"
purchased. Since the definition of "legally purchased" in Egypt
depends solely on whether you get caught and involve the authorities,
then there are no legal grounds outside of Egypt to prove legality one
way or the other.

I would think that a similar legal paradigm holds true for most of the
Saharan meteorites, unless a given nation has explicitly prohibited or
regulated the export/trading of meteorites - such as Algeria and
Sudan.

What I find interesting, is that Chris Spratt posted an excellent link
to an online Omani news publication that quoted Omani officials on
laws regarding the removal of meteorites, and you could hear a pin
drop on the list. No discussion ensued and the post slipped into the
archives largely ignored. This is despite the fact that the link in
question was extremely relevant to a recent meteorite legal drama in
the same part of the world. I think if there was ever any ambiguity
about the legal status of removing meteorites from Oman, that
ambiguity has been removed entirely - both by the article in the link,
and by the conclusion of the recent meteorite drama which has also
slipped into the archives when it was generally agreed upon to not
discuss it in public. This is a clear example of the "wink wink"
paradigm that permeates US law. And this the subject of another
discussion entirely. And this is why, in part, that comparing US
legal precedents to Egyptian law is largely meaningless, since both
cultures have different ways of approaching and enforcing legal
matters.

Best regards and happy huntings,

MikeG

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On 3/13/11, Jason Utas <meteoritekid at gmail.com> wrote:
> Carl,
> Legal precedents in the US suggest that meteorites belong to the
> person upon whose land they are found. As we found out with the
> recent Lorton fall, renting the land upon which a meteorite falls
> apparently gives someone adequate claim to ownership.
> If you want to be nit-picky, we can break it down, but the answer is
> still the same: you do not have the right to claim ownership of *any*
> meteorite found on public land in the US.
> The BLM is under the jurisdiction of the US Dept. of the Interior and,
> as such, it is a federal government program. While each state has its
> own sub-BLM department, they are technically an extension of the
> federal government, and any meteorite found on BLM land belongs to the
> federal government (and thus the Smithsonian).
> There is no such thing as "public land," in the sense that you seem to
> be suggesting, Carl. "Public land" is not "free meteorite hunting
> territory." It is either owned by the country, state, county, or
> city, meaning that a meteorite found on such land would belong
> to...one of those organizations. Whether you're on BLM land, state
> trust land, or sitting in a city park, you're standing on land that
> belongs to a governmental organization, and any meteorite found on
> said land would legally be deemed lawfully theirs.
>
> If what MikeG said is true, then it's true. I just find it hard to
> believe granted that the export of Libyan desert glass from Egypt
> wasn't made illicit until people started realizing that neolithic
> tools made of it were being shipped out of Egypt as well. The entire
> controversy surrounding the glass had nothing to do with the export of
> the glass in general, but rather pertained to the export of artifacts
> made of the glass. Things with cultural value. And now its export is
> prohibited.
>
> Regards,
> Jason
>
>
>
> On Sun, Mar 13, 2011 at 7:52 AM, <cdtucson at cox.net> wrote:
>> Jason,
>> PLEASE!!!
>> YOU said;
>>
>>>
>>> "4) In light of that fact that the US owns all meteorites found on
>>> public land, by the logic of your statement, it should be illegal to
>>> export (or own) any meteorite found on public land in the US. After
>>> all, if all meteorites found on public land belong to the US
>>> government, then, surely, one cannot legally export them."
>>>
>>
>> This statement you make here is completely FALSE.
>> Where on Earth did you ever see this?
>> The US Government only owns meteorites found on FEDERAL USA land. Not on
>> public land.
>> That makes a huge difference.
>> This means NATIONAL PARKS and not many of us ever hunt on federal lands to
>> begin with.
>> It has been posted umpteen times that State lands allow meteorite hunting
>> and ownership is *never* questioned .
>> In fact there are specific quotas or amounts of material they allow you to
>> take off public State land. I seem to remember it being 20 pounds per year
>> or something like that. (BLM)
>> But to be very clear here.
>> It is NOT illegal to hunt on state owned land and for you to say so is as
>> you would put it. WELL, WRONG!
>> I still believe that the Egyptian Government does not allow ANYTHING to be
>> taken.
>> Meteorites would fall generally under the ANYTHING category? ??
>> Maybe?
>> Carl
>>
>>
>> --
>> Carl or Debbie Esparza
>> Meteoritemax
>>
>>
>> ---- Jason Utas <meteoritekid at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Carl,
>>> You don't seem to understand what I'm saying.
>>>
>>> 1) The Egyptian government has made no claims regarding meteorite
>>> ownership. The questionable claims were made by a few Egyptian
>>> professors. No one with official governmental standing has said
>>> anything.
>>>
>>> 2) Egypt has no laws in place (currently) that address the ownership
>>> of meteorites. Well, none published. They tend to be good with such
>>> things, and I can only assume that owning an Egyptian meteorite is
>>> legal since it has historically never been an issue, and the
>>> government has yet to make any sort of statement about it.
>>>
>>> -- You seem to be suggesting that Egypt may have such laws. I'm not
>>> sure where you got the idea, but even after I discounted it, you're
>>> still pushing it, so I'm not sure what to say.
>>>
>>> 3) I'd like to point out that the US does have such laws pertaining to
>>> meteorites. They suggest that any and all meteorites found on public
>>> land belong to the US government.
>>>
>>> Carl - you asked, "if the Gov . of Egypt owns it you cannot export it.
>>> Isn't it that simple?"
>>>
>>> 4) In light of that fact that the US owns all meteorites found on
>>> public land, by the logic of your statement, it should be illegal to
>>> export (or own) any meteorite found on public land in the US. After
>>> all, if all meteorites found on public land belong to the US
>>> government, then, surely, one cannot legally export them.
>>>
>>> So, to answer your original question, no. Based on all available
>>> information, it is not illegal to export meteorites from Egypt,
>>> because the country has no laws that restrict the ownership or export
>>> of meteorites. Just some noisy professors who complain when it
>>> happens.
>>>
>>> These sorts of issues are typically not "that simple." If you want to
>>> view things simplistically, I suggest you start asking people to turn
>>> over all meteorites found on US public land to the public institution
>>> nearest them.
>>>
>>> Jason
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sat, Mar 12, 2011 at 8:54 PM, <cdtucson at cox.net> wrote:
>>> > Jason,
>>> > Now you lost me?
>>> > I was talking about Egyptian material. Specifically Gebel Kamil.
>>> > My query had nothing to do with anything American at all.
>>> > So, I say again. If it is illegal to own things there. It goes without
>>> > saying it is also illegal to export it.
>>> > This has been said to be the case with all things from Egypt. They are
>>> > illegal to export.
>>> > Period.
>>> > Therefore, All meteorites taken or rather trafficked from Egypt must be
>>> > illegal at least by Egyptian standards.
>>> >
>>> > I do know of a similar situation in Mexico. Their pre-Columbian art and
>>> > anything else that has been nationalized by the government Belongs to
>>> > the government and is therefore illegal to export.
>>> > But, that does not mean it is illegal to import into the USA.
>>> > The question them becomes; how do you feel about ownership once the
>>> > material reaches USA soil?
>>> > It is legally here by US standards but, it is at the same time
>>> > illegally here by Mexican standards.
>>> > This is so much recognized that timing becomes a real factor. If for
>>> > example you brought the material to the USA prior to the Mexican law
>>> > being enacted then generally it is accepted as legal here. However, I
>>> > do know that the ICE agency does seize material brought to the USA
>>> > soil if it was brought after such laws took effect in their respective
>>> > countries.
>>> > How this pertains to Gebel kamil seems obvious.
>>> > This material is trafficked and therefore illegal by our own ICE
>>> > agency. Maybe?
>>> > There was a case in Tucson at the 2008 Gem show where American ICE
>>> > agents actually seized an entire inventory from a dealer that illegally
>>> > imported 4 tons of rare fossils from Argentina. So, as a matter of
>>> > fact. ICE does get involved and the outcome of that case was that all
>>> > of the seized material was returned to Argentina.
>>> > This obviously had NOTHING to do with any cultural anything. It was
>>> > just stuff they did not want to be taken from them. That's all.
>>> > So, again. this does mean that Gebel Kamil may not be legal here?
>>> > I don't know if it is or not.
>>> > I am asking how the meteorite community feels about this sort of
>>> > thing???
>>> > Carl
>>> > --
>>> > Carl or Debbie Esparza
>>> > Meteoritemax
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > ---- Jason Utas <meteoritekid at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> >> Hello Carl,
>>> >> If we were talking about private ownership, I'd have to agree with
>>> >> you. In this case, there are two things that argue for my
>>> >> perspective.
>>> >>
>>> >> The first is that we in the US (as well as our government) don't seem
>>> >> to mind at all when meteorites found on public land (e.g. Holbrook,
>>> >> Franconia, Gold Basin, most dry-lake finds, and many other meteorites)
>>> >> are retained in private hands and/or shipped out of the country. Do
>>> >> some scientists in the US seem to be angered by this commercial aspect
>>> >> of distribution and ownership? Yes. Is it against the law? Doesn't
>>> >> seem like it. You note an interesting problem, though, that I'll deal
>>> >> with below. As I noted in my last email, the government has tried to
>>> >> reclaim only a single meteorite ever found on public land by
>>> >> litigation, and have appeared wholly uninterested in most, if not all
>>> >> other meteorites found on public land.
>>> >>
>>> >> The second is that the situation in Egypt seems to be analogous more
>>> >> than superficially. The people trying to prevent the export of
>>> >> meteorites from Egypt weren't/aren't government officials -- they're
>>> >> professors, unaffiliated with the government. If you read the text of
>>> >> Law 117, you would know that it specifically excludes meteorites,
>>> >> since they're not of human genesis and have not been altered by people
>>> >> in any way (well, Gebel Kamil appears to have not been touched by
>>> >> prehistoric people, though I know that some other meteorites have had
>>> >> cultural significance in the past). In other words, there are no
>>> >> Egyptian export laws pertaining to meteorites, and the only people
>>> >> saying that their export is illegal don't have the right to enforce
>>> >> laws, never mind the fact that they seem to be making up new ones.
>>> >>
>>> >> Getting back to what you said -- you seem to be suggesting that every
>>> >> meteorite found on public land in the US belongs to the government and
>>> >> should not be:
>>> >> 1) exported
>>> >> 2) retained in private hands
>>> >> 3) sold on an open market
>>> >> - and should be turned over to the appropriate officials upon
>>> >> discovery.
>>> >>
>>> >> I don't think I need to say too much on here about that sort of
>>> >> perspective. The moment you start telling people they're going to
>>> >> have to turn over every last piece of Franconia, Glorietta Mountain,
>>> >> and _____ Dry Lake xxxx to the government is the moment you start
>>> >> getting...nasty emails, to say the least.
>>> >>
>>> >> I see it as the picking of a wildflower growing in someone else's
>>> >> field. Does it belong to them? Yes. Do they care? No. Will you
>>> >> get arrested for taking it? Don't be ridiculous. If they ask for its
>>> >> return, though, I think you might be obliged to turn it over. I hope
>>> >> that never happens...
>>> >>
>>> >> Regards,
>>> >> Jason
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >> On Sat, Mar 12, 2011 at 3:23 PM, <cdtucson at cox.net> wrote:
>>> >> > Jason,
>>> >> > you said;
>>> >> >
>>> >> > "While this claim may be correct in the sense that objects on the
>>> >> > public land of any country belong to the federal or state government
>>> >> > with jurisdiction over the given land, if there are no export laws
>>> >> > pertaining to a given resource, it is not illegal to export it. "
>>> >> >
>>> >> > Isn't this a circular argument?
>>> >> >
>>> >> > I mean isn't it irrelevant whether it is legal to export or not
>>> >> > legal to export if it does not belong to you in the first place?
>>> >> >
>>> >> > Again, if the Gov . of Egypt owns it you cannot export it.
>>> >> >
>>> >> > Isn't it that simple?
>>> >> >
>>> >> > Which means it is in fact illegal to export.
>>> >> >
>>> >> > This has been discussed with regard to other minerals and fossils
>>> >> > and it was stated that they do not belong to the finder either and
>>> >> > therefore they are not yours to take.
>>> >> > Just asking?
>>> >> > thanks.
>>> >> > Carl
>>> >> >
>>> >> >
>>> >> > --
>>> >> > Carl or Debbie Esparza
>>> >> > Meteoritemax
>>> >> >
>>> >> >
>>> >> > ---- Jason Utas <meteoritekid at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> >> >> Hello Richard, Greg, All,
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >> To date an estimated 2-3 tonnes of shrapnel fragments have been
>>> >> >> recovered, ranging in weight from a few grams to 35 kilograms. One
>>> >> >> regmaglypted individual was found, weighing 83kg. It was
>>> >> >> discovered
>>> >> >> and retained by the scientific expedition that first explored the
>>> >> >> crater, so all that will be available for the likes of us are
>>> >> >> pieces
>>> >> >> of shrapnel produced by the violent destruction of the main mass
>>> >> >> when
>>> >> >> it produced the crater.
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >> some have asserted that it is illegal to export meteorites from
>>> >> >> Egypt
>>> >> >> without approval from the state. I looked into the issue, and, as
>>> >> >> best I can tell, this is entirely untrue. It seems as though the
>>> >> >> academics involved in the discovery and exploration of the crater
>>> >> >> decided to attempt to apply the Egyptian antiquities law that
>>> >> >> refers
>>> >> >> specifically to man-made/cultural artifacts - to meteorites. In
>>> >> >> light
>>> >> >> of that fact, I believe that all of the specimens exported legal,
>>> >> >> at
>>> >> >> least until Egypt passes a law that acutally prohibits the export
>>> >> >> of
>>> >> >> minerals specimens and/or meteorites.
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >> See here:
>>> >> >> http://www.cprinst.org/cultural-heritage-legislation-in-egypt
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >> Since there are no clear laws pertaining to meteorites, the real
>>> >> >> question is whether or not a meteorite can be said to have
>>> >> >> "cultural
>>> >> >> value."
>>> >> >> If we break this idea down, the real question we need to ask
>>> >> >> pertains
>>> >> >> to the definition of what can be termed "cultural."
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >> To my kowledge, at least in Egypt, 'law 117' has never been applied
>>> >> >> to
>>> >> >> objects that were not human artifacts. (Never.)
>>> >> >> The scientists working on the meteorite claimed that export permits
>>> >> >> were required for meteorites because, "Everything which is found in
>>> >> >> the Egyptian soil is property of the government." (Tarek Hussein,
>>> >> >> former president of Egypt's Academy of Scientific Research and
>>> >> >> Technology)
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >> http://www.sott.net/articles/show/213262-Deep-impact-market-the-race-to-acquire-meteorites
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >> While this claim may be correct in the sense that objects on the
>>> >> >> public land of any country belong to the federal or state
>>> >> >> government
>>> >> >> with jurisdiction over the given land, if there are no export laws
>>> >> >> pertaining to a given resource, it is not illegal to export it.
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >> For a perfect example, note that all meteorites found on public and
>>> >> >> BLM land in the US technically belong to the US government. Since
>>> >> >> there are no US laws pertaining to the export of US meteorites, and
>>> >> >> the government does not enforce their ownership of any of these
>>> >> >> meteorites (with one historic exception), it is generally viewed as
>>> >> >> legal to export meteorites from the US -- even those found on
>>> >> >> public
>>> >> >> land.
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >> Regards,
>>> >> >> Jason
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >> On Sat, Mar 12, 2011 at 6:17 AM, Greg Catterton
>>> >> >> <star_wars_collector at yahoo.com> wrote:
>>> >> >> > Prices are interesting with the meteorite. I do know that most of
>>> >> >> > the material on the market is "stolen" and should not be sold.
>>> >> >> > Egypt does not allow the export of meteorites and last I read,
>>> >> >> > only about 2kg was approved for export.
>>> >> >> > Its a nice meteorite, but should be considered illegal just like
>>> >> >> > Berduc and others that come from countries with harsh export
>>> >> >> > laws.
>>> >> >> >
>>> >> >> > Greg Catterton
>>> >> >> > www.wanderingstarmeteorites.com
>>> >> >> > IMCA member 4682
>>> >> >> > On Ebay: http://stores.shop.ebay.com/wanderingstarmeteorites
>>> >> >> > On Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/WanderingStarMeteorites
>>> >> >> >
>>> >> >> >
>>> >> >> > --- On Fri, 3/11/11, Richard Montgomery <rickmont at earthlink.net>
>>> >> >> > wrote:
>>> >> >> >
>>> >> >> >> From: Richard Montgomery <rickmont at earthlink.net>
>>> >> >> >> Subject: [meteorite-list] Gebel Kamil
>>> >> >> >> To: "'Meteorite-list List'"
>>> >> >> >> <meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com>
>>> >> >> >> Date: Friday, March 11, 2011, 9:13 PM
>>> >> >> >> Hello List. Taking a breath for
>>> >> >> >> a minute following the disaster in Japan, for welcome
>>> >> >> >> relief (yet God bless them please).... I'll ask about
>>> >> >> >> this since I've been wondering for a while since the crater
>>> >> >> >> was announced:
>>> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >> Do we yet have an estimated TKW of Gebel Kamil? Also,
>>> >> >> >> those first images of the couple (I've only seen two) of
>>> >> >> >> complete regmaglypted individuals are somewhere unknown to
>>> >> >> >> me, but wow!! Which reflects on my next query...what
>>> >> >> >> other 'individual-shrapnel' occurance events to we know of?
>>> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >> I'm fortunate to own a few nice sand-blasted pieces, as
>>> >> >> >> many of us are. The auction prices seem low to me.
>>> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >> Just curious, and wondering.
>>> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >> -Richard Montgomery
>>> >> >> >> ______________________________________________
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>>> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >
>>> >> >> >
>>> >> >> >
>>> >> >> > ______________________________________________
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Received on Sun 13 Mar 2011 04:31:42 PM PDT