[meteorite-list] Gebel Kamil

From: cdtucson at cox.net <*cdtucson_at_meteoritecentral.com*> Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2011 23:54:54 -0500 Message-ID: <20110312235454.PN44W.35796.imail_at_fed1rmwml33> · cdtucson_at_meteoritecentral.com

--
Carl or Debbie Esparza
Meteoritemax
---- Jason Utas <meteoritekid at gmail.com> wrote: 
> Hello Carl,
> If we were talking about private ownership, I'd have to agree with
> you.  In this case, there are two things that argue for my
> perspective.
> 
> The first is that we in the US (as well as our government) don't seem
> to mind at all when meteorites found on public land (e.g. Holbrook,
> Franconia, Gold Basin, most dry-lake finds, and many other meteorites)
> are retained in private hands and/or shipped out of the country.  Do
> some scientists in the US seem to be angered by this commercial aspect
> of distribution and ownership?  Yes.  Is it against the law?  Doesn't
> seem like it.  You note an interesting problem, though, that I'll deal
> with below.  As I noted in my last email, the government has tried to
> reclaim only a single meteorite ever found on public land by
> litigation, and have appeared wholly uninterested in most, if not all
> other meteorites found on public land.
> 
> The second is that the situation in Egypt seems to be analogous more
> than superficially.  The people trying to prevent the export of
> meteorites from Egypt weren't/aren't government officials -- they're
> professors, unaffiliated with the government.  If you read the text of
> Law 117, you would know that it specifically excludes meteorites,
> since they're not of human genesis and have not been altered by people
> in any way (well, Gebel Kamil appears to have not been touched by
> prehistoric people, though I know that some other meteorites have had
> cultural significance in the past).  In other words, there are no
> Egyptian export laws pertaining to meteorites, and the only people
> saying that their export is illegal don't have the right to enforce
> laws, never mind the fact that they seem to be making up new ones.
> 
> Getting back to what you said -- you seem to be suggesting that every
> meteorite found on public land in the US belongs to the government and
> should not be:
> 1) exported
> 2) retained in private hands
> 3) sold on an open market
> - and should be turned over to the appropriate officials upon discovery.
> 
> I don't think I need to say too much on here about that sort of
> perspective.  The moment you start telling people they're going to
> have to turn over every last piece of Franconia, Glorietta Mountain,
> and _____ Dry Lake xxxx to the government is the moment you start
> getting...nasty emails, to say the least.
> 
> I see it as the picking of a wildflower growing in someone else's
> field.  Does it belong to them?  Yes.  Do they care?  No.  Will you
> get arrested for taking it?  Don't be ridiculous.  If they ask for its
> return, though, I think you might be obliged to turn it over. I hope
> that never happens...
> 
> Regards,
> Jason
> 
> 
> On Sat, Mar 12, 2011 at 3:23 PM,  <cdtucson at cox.net> wrote:
> > Jason,
> > you said;
> >
> > "While this claim may be correct in the sense that objects on the
> > public land of any country belong to the federal or state government
> > with jurisdiction over the given land, if there are no export laws
> > pertaining to a given resource, it is not illegal to export it. "
> >
> > Isn't this a circular argument?
> >
> > I mean isn't ?it irrelevant whether it is legal to export or not legal to export if it does not belong to you in the first place?
> >
> > Again, if the Gov . of Egypt owns it you cannot export it.
> >
> > Isn't it that simple?
> >
> > Which means it is in fact illegal to export.
> >
> > This has been discussed with regard to other minerals and fossils and it was stated that they do not belong to the finder either and therefore they are not yours to take.
> > Just asking?
> > thanks.
> > Carl
> >
> >
> > --
> > Carl or Debbie Esparza
> > Meteoritemax
> >
> >
> > ---- Jason Utas <meteoritekid at gmail.com> wrote:
> >> Hello Richard, Greg, All,
> >>
> >> To date an estimated 2-3 tonnes of shrapnel fragments have been
> >> recovered, ranging in weight from a few grams to 35 kilograms. ?One
> >> regmaglypted individual was found, weighing 83kg. ?It was discovered
> >> and retained by the scientific expedition that first explored the
> >> crater, so all that will be available for the likes of us are pieces
> >> of shrapnel produced by the violent destruction of the main mass when
> >> it produced the crater.
> >>
> >> some have asserted that it is illegal to export meteorites from Egypt
> >> without approval from the state. ?I looked into the issue, and, as
> >> best I can tell, this is entirely untrue. ?It seems as though the
> >> academics involved in the discovery and exploration of the crater
> >> decided to attempt to apply the Egyptian antiquities law that refers
> >> specifically to man-made/cultural artifacts - to meteorites. ?In light
> >> of that fact, I believe that all of the specimens exported legal, at
> >> least until Egypt passes a law that acutally prohibits the export of
> >> minerals specimens and/or meteorites.
> >>
> >> See here: http://www.cprinst.org/cultural-heritage-legislation-in-egypt
> >>
> >> Since there are no clear laws pertaining to meteorites, the real
> >> question is whether or not a meteorite can be said to have "cultural
> >> value."
> >> If we break this idea down, the real question we need to ask pertains
> >> to the definition of what can be termed "cultural."
> >>
> >> To my kowledge, at least in Egypt, 'law 117' has never been applied to
> >> objects that were not human artifacts. ?(Never.)
> >> The scientists working on the meteorite claimed that export permits
> >> were required for meteorites because, "Everything which is found in
> >> the Egyptian soil is property of the government." ?(Tarek Hussein,
> >> former president of Egypt's Academy of Scientific Research and
> >> Technology)
> >>
> >> http://www.sott.net/articles/show/213262-Deep-impact-market-the-race-to-acquire-meteorites
> >>
> >> While this claim may be correct in the sense that objects on the
> >> public land of any country belong to the federal or state government
> >> with jurisdiction over the given land, if there are no export laws
> >> pertaining to a given resource, it is not illegal to export it.
> >>
> >> For a perfect example, note that all meteorites found on public and
> >> BLM land in the US technically belong to the US government. ?Since
> >> there are no US laws pertaining to the export of US meteorites, and
> >> the government does not enforce their ownership of any of these
> >> meteorites (with one historic exception), it is generally viewed as
> >> legal to export meteorites from the US -- even those found on public
> >> land.
> >>
> >> Regards,
> >> Jason
> >>
> >> On Sat, Mar 12, 2011 at 6:17 AM, Greg Catterton
> >> <star_wars_collector at yahoo.com> wrote:
> >> > Prices are interesting with the meteorite. I do know that most of the material on the market is "stolen" and should not be sold. Egypt does not allow the export of meteorites and last I read, only about 2kg was approved for export.
> >> > Its a nice meteorite, but should be considered illegal just like Berduc and others that come from countries with harsh export laws.
> >> >
> >> > Greg Catterton
> >> > www.wanderingstarmeteorites.com
> >> > IMCA member 4682
> >> > On Ebay: http://stores.shop.ebay.com/wanderingstarmeteorites
> >> > On Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/WanderingStarMeteorites
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > --- On Fri, 3/11/11, Richard Montgomery <rickmont at earthlink.net> wrote:
> >> >
> >> >> From: Richard Montgomery <rickmont at earthlink.net>
> >> >> Subject: [meteorite-list] Gebel Kamil
> >> >> To: "'Meteorite-list List'" <meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com>
> >> >> Date: Friday, March 11, 2011, 9:13 PM
> >> >> Hello List.? Taking a breath for
> >> >> a minute following the disaster in Japan, for welcome
> >> >> relief? (yet God bless them please).... I'll ask about
> >> >> this since I've been wondering for a while since the crater
> >> >> was announced:
> >> >>
> >> >> Do we yet have an estimated TKW of Gebel Kamil?? Also,
> >> >> those first images of the couple (I've only seen two) of
> >> >> complete regmaglypted individuals are somewhere unknown to
> >> >> me, but wow!!? Which reflects on my next query...what
> >> >> other 'individual-shrapnel' occurance events to we know of?
> >> >>
> >> >> I'm fortunate to own a few nice sand-blasted pieces, as
> >> >> many of us are.? The auction prices seem low to me.
> >> >>
> >> >> Just curious, and wondering.
> >> >>
> >> >> -Richard Montgomery
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