[meteorite-list] YD event, western meteorites

From: E.P. Grondine <epgrondine_at_meteoritecentral.com>
Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2011 06:33:14 -0700 (PDT)
Message-ID: <1311773594.91362.YahooMailClassic_at_web36907.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Hi Doug -

Staggering, isn't it?

The Native American accounts of the YD surviving 13,000 years is certainly extraordinary. Well beyond anything else we're familiar with, though some Chinese accounts may be as old.

I don't know if I've mentioned this here before, but generally children at about age 8 were selected for their memories, then trained. There were also mnemonic aides which were used, such as pictograms, talking sticks, and wampum belts.

How do I deal with it all? Very very carefully. My final check was always the archaeological record, such as it was at the time.

Many of the "tradition keepers" died during the conquest, and a lot was lost by the mechanisms you mention. Thus as a general rule I tried to find the earliest recordings of the traditions and used them.

The European recordings and transmissions themselves also introduced problems, both of translation and perspective. For example, in the current case, Mayor understood the YD accounts to be fossil legends, as fossils are her specialty, and she was intensely hunting for fossils, so I'll have to go back to the original recordings of the traditions for the second edition of "Man and Impact in the Americas". Despite her great effort, Mayor could not understand fundamental Native American concepts such as Uktena and Tlanwa, or M'si Piase.

The Native American YD accounts were often tied into their creation stories, and were usually the oldest item remembered. Probably around 95% of the populations were lost in the "nuclear winter" at the YD.

I will add that Mayor's book does have some more western meteorite lore, and that by dint of very hard work she came very close to grasping the YD.

As to whether metal detecting the high plains would work now, I don't know.
What samples anyone there might let you take a look at, I don't know. I haven't been out that way.

Myself, I might be tempted to take the meteorites at a fossil site, and then try to get a share of the fossils' values. I certainly would not do that on land which is owned, and would strike some deal with the land owners before hunting, as is usually done.

If you plan on going to a western reservation, everyone here knows how to work with land owners. You might want to consider training the young people and then taking them along with you as you hunt.

Signed copies of the first edition of my book "Man and Impact in the Americas" are still available at a lower price to meteorite list participants - contact me off list.

Good hunting,
Ed

--- On Wed, 7/27/11, MexicoDoug <mexicodoug at aim.com> wrote:

> From: MexicoDoug <mexicodoug at aim.com>
> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] YD event, western meteorites
> To: epgrondine at yahoo.com, meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com
> Date: Wednesday, July 27, 2011, 1:36 AM
> Hi Ed
>
> What is the half-life you are considering for accurate oral
> history/tradition before it becomes swallowed up in the
> background noise of natural events and stories ...
> especially when not only generations are born and die, but
> as their cultures come and go as well?
>
> I love the interpretations you provide, but once everyone
> is dead, then what? ... Second, third, fourth and
> fifth hand information. When chasing meteorite falls,
> I have found second generation (mis) information absolutely
> useless. For 5000 years, as an example, that is around
> 100 stretched out generations. I would say that right
> now, to track down a witnessed fall for which there is no
> written record to assist with recovery locations, for
> example, we are looking at the late 1940's to date and that
> is really stretching it, before the information loses its
> integrity and actually can become a liability rather than
> starting with a clean slate. The half life for that is
> thus between 10 - 15 years..
>
> I'm just curious to how you deal with this distortion and
> loss in your research.
>
> Kindest wishes
> Doug
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: E.P. Grondine <epgrondine at yahoo.com>
> To: meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com
> Sent: Tue, Jul 26, 2011 9:45 pm
> Subject: [meteorite-list] YD event, western meteorites
>
>
> Hi Paul -
>
> The supernova hypothesis does not explain the sudden
> cooling of the Pacific
> Current off of the Northwest Pacific Coast.
>
> Let me run through a hypothetical mechanism again: the
> Berring straits are
> opened by a northward drainage of glacial Lake Agassiz,
> apparently triggered by
> impact this time. Cooler water off the Pacific Coast
> results in less warm moist
> air over northen North America (Canada) wdhich results in
> less snowfall. That in
> turn reflects less sunlight back into space, and global
> temperatures rise.
>
> It is nice to see someone giving Mr. Cox's features the
> attention they deserve.
>
> Hi Rich -
>
> The effect of this cooling current is what the western
> Lakes archaeologists are
> speaking of.
>
> For events at the YD itself, we have two Assiboine
> accounts:
>
> THE ASSINIBOINE ACCOUNTS IN ADRIEN MAYOR'S RETELLING
>
> Fragment 1:
>
> "One Assiniboine name for bones of monstrous size was
> "Wau-wau-kah". This was a
> "half spirit, half animal" imagined as a great river
> monster with long
> black[?]hair, scales, and horns like trees.
>
> Myth [tradition - epg] tells of its death by the impact of
> a "thunder stone", a
> black ["black" due to the ablation surface seen in the
> meteorites which the
> Nakota collected - epg], projectile that came whistling out
> of the west with
> "terrible velocity", "defeaning noise", and a bright flash
> - a scenario that
> seems akin to the modern theory of an asteroid impact 65
> million years ago
> [Mayor gets so close here :P - epg].
>
> "My bones may be found", warned the Water Monster
> Wau-wau-kah, but unless the
> Assiniboines made offerings to its spirit, the monster
> vowed to create
> disastrous floods and block their trails with its colossal
> bones."
>
> Fragment 2:
>
> "A tale [tradition - epg] of the antagonism between Thunder
> and Water Monsters
> was recounted by an Assiniboine story teller [tradition
> keeper - epg] (perhaps
> Coming Day? - AM) in 1909 at Fort Belknap.
>
> "Long ago, some Sioux and Assiniboines camping at a big
> lake witnessed a battle
> between Thunder Bird and a Water Monster on an island in
> the lake."
>
> The storyteller's grandmother had told him that:
> "as the Thunder Bird drew the writhing monster up from the
> island, the Indians'
> hair and their horses manes, ["horses manes" a non-temporal
> insertion - epg]
> stood on end from the electricity. ["electricity" - another
> non-temporal
> insertion. Perhaps also a simple telling of a large
> electrophorenic effect. -
> epg]
>
> "The Thunder Bird's lightening ignited raging forest fires;
> then a long terrible
> blizzard followed; and still later the lake bed dried up
> and many kinds of
> animals perished there."
>
> THIS WAS AT THE YD IMPACT -
>
> Paul, which western lake was it?
>
> In regards to the "horses manes", it needs to be noted that
> a rider on a horse
> in the plains is a high point that will attract lightening,
> much as a golfer on
> a gold course will, and thus it was important to learn the
> signs of an impending
> lightening strike.
>
> METEORITES - For everyone else here:
>
> In the footnotes we also find these two items on the
> Pawnee:
> "Besides an interest in fossils, the Pawnees were also
> keenly aware of
> meteorites, which they located and collected after
> observing their trajectories.
> Indeed, the Kansas prairie is one of the best places on
> Earth to find
> meteorites." page 377
>
> "Pawnee priests were concerned with astronomy, while Pawnee
> doctors dealt with
> earth phenomena, such as fossils. page 376
>
> If you find meteorites on a ledge, or with human bones, in
> that area, leave
> them.
>
> Sonny, you may have been closer than you imagined in your
> recent hunt. But would
> you really have wanted to take home that meteorite?
>
> good hunting,
> Ed
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Received on Wed 27 Jul 2011 09:33:14 AM PDT