[meteorite-list] Retail & Auction Price Guides

From: Richard Montgomery <rickmont_at_meteoritecentral.com>
Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2011 07:49:40 -0800
Message-ID: <1CD3233F6EA04452831EC921DC56445A_at_bosoheadPC>

Hi List...(I'm the other Richard...but not from Chicago.)

One thing that seems to be missing in this discussion is that collecting
meteorites, TKWs, rarity, figuring their associated values, the size of the
collector base, etc...is not a static model. Of course all of this changes
over time (as Steve pointed out), and those that collect bricks will attest.

Kevin's price guide may be a valueable tool to watch over time, as will
watching auction results over time. Again, not a static model. Watching
changing auction results, also not a static model.

I initially commented on this thread to point out that miss-information
potentially being maliciously represented by an over-ambitious media could
inflame (and has in one case) a landowner, all of whom should be held in
high respect; [it could do the same if a malicious someone did a story on
(e.g.) "the over-stated value of TFL meteorites, but doesn't rule out
blood-vessel fossils in the new North American lunars, etc." ....and in the
unknowing public's reaction, completely damage the validity of complete and
proper classifications...]

In the case of Michael's auction, it was all above-board (both on the net)
and open to anyone to attend; with that said, merely asking for results
off-list is a simple solution for anyone.

It might even be a measure of interest; this, of course, is another reason
to cite the non-static model.

-Richard (Rick) Montgomery
Goldierocks



From: <mail at mhmeteorites.com>
To: "Richard Kowalski" <damoclid at yahoo.com>;
<meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com>;
<meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com>
Sent: Friday, February 25, 2011 6:32 AM
Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Retail & Auction Price Guides


Hi Richard
Seems we just completely disagree. I won't reiterate my points again, but
we have survived in this hobby for several decades since the first large
dealers began without a price guide and survived quite well. If there is a
place for a guide then why hasn't one stuck over that time period? There
have been several attempts before Kevin, with no success. Again the
collecting market can determine the need for a guide.

Why not do your own pricing? Kevin admits he doesn't use auctions ad doesn't
know what the dealers SOLD items for. To me a guide like that is not
useful. REALIZED prices may be ok, but good luck getting those data from
dealers.


Matt
------------------------
Matt Morgan
Mile High Meteorites
http://www.mhmeteorites.com
P.O. Box 151293
Lakewood, CO 80215

-----Original Message-----
From: Richard Kowalski <damoclid at yahoo.com>
Sender: meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com
Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2011 23:20:02
To: <meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com>
Subject: [meteorite-list] Retail & Auction Price Guides

Sorry for making another subject change on this Kevin & Matt.

I have to argue directly against you one this one Matt.

Retail price guides and auction results have a very real and useful place in
any collectibles market, especially for a market as small and thin as the
meteorite market.

While I do not have Kevin's price guide, I certainly think it is something
useful. Auction results are a very important tool too.

Nearly everyone on this list who spoke up not too long ago when asked about
interests other than meteorites said they collect some thing or other. Many
of these collectors collected coins and notes, numisma. Since this is the
first collecting bug tat bit me too, I'll discuss this market in those
terms.

Coins, tokens, notes, etc is a huge market, but value is assigned by the
numerous points already raised and more, but are always dictated by supply
and demand. Many relatively common coins are very valuable because so many
collectors desire them while vast areas of numismatics, which are rather
esoteric, may only have a few hundred of even just one or a few collectors
worldwide. That is a type of market the we find ourselves in.

I've had a number of you with customer lists privately estimate for me the
worldwide number of active meteorite collectors and the consensus seems to
be well under 1000. Many estimate the number to be around 500. Double or
maybe triple that and you have the total number of active and sporadic
collectors. Adam Hupe often points out how rare meteorites are and that is
very true. The flip side of that is the meteorite collector base is
minuscule. Just in those small areas of numismatics many insanely rare,
beautiful and interesting items go for pennies.

The money collector community and market is literally thousands of years old
and has a huge worldwide collector base. There are price guides to be found
that include highly esoteric topics with no concern about new collectors
being confused by retail versus wholesale. The pricing methodology is
outlined and the collector is urged to learn as much as they can about the
material and pricing. Same as meteorites no?

When I started seriously collecting meteorites a few years ago, I already
had some information about meteorites and vast experience as a collector, so
the first order of things for me was 1, determine which direction I wanted
my collecting to go. 2, determine which dealers were trustworthy and 3, how
much do I pay? 1 & 2 were easy but #3 was more difficult. I wish I knew of
Kevin's guide back then. It would have saved me some time and effort.

For me I'd like to see a few more guides, not less. I bet Michael could turn
a very nice profit if he sold PDF books of all the auction lots and prices
realized from this year and at all of his previous auctions too. I know I'd
buy a copy.

Cheers

--
Richard Kowalski
Full Moon Photography
IMCA #1081
--- On Thu, 2/24/11, mail at mhmeteorites.com <mail at mhmeteorites.com> wrote:
> From: mail at mhmeteorites.com <mail at mhmeteorites.com>
> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Tucson Auction #1
> To: "Kevin Kichinka" <marsrox at gmail.com>, 
> meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com, 
> meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com
> Date: Thursday, February 24, 2011, 8:01 PM
> Hi Kevin and list:
> Kevin, while I appreciate what you are doing and applaud
> you for putting together a detailed and extensive list, I
> will just say that I think any price guides in any field are
> problematic. All collectibles are worth only what one
> is willing to pay. Coinage may be a different
> situation since there is underlying value in the metal
> commodity and there are fairly accurate mintage numbers.
>
> A good example are home values. An owner can ask 500k
> for their home but only realize 300k in today's
> "market". Zillow.com is a great example of how a
> "price guide" should work; they show the recently sold price
> not asking prices (as you do in your guide). If one
> were to use asking prices the housing market would be
> artificially higher than what is realized in the market.
>
> I also think that price guides give collectors a false
> sense of hope when it comes to selling their
> collections. For example, a dealer should be paying
> them $10/g for Estherville (according to a price from your
> list) when in fact I wouldn't pay more than $6/g, which is
> perceived as "ripping" the collector off. This creates a
> feeling of animosity for the collector and may result in
> them not collecting any longer.
>
> With meteorites or any other collectible for that matter, a
> dealer (or any person with the item) can ask whatever he or
> she wishes to ask. The consumer is best served by
> doing their own market analysis. As you pointed out there
> are dozens of different reasons for assigning a value to a
> meteorite, many of which are subjective (appearance,
> freshness, orientation, etc.). Even the TKW is misleading if
> one uses the MetBull as the standard for that. Who
> says that Allende is "worth" 10/g? The consumer does. Not
> Kevin, not Matt, not Cap"n Blood.
>
> So while price guides may seem like a good idea and may be
> perceived as educational, I think they offer little to no
> value in the collectible marketplace. I could go on,
> but my fingers are tired from the Blackberry keyboard!
>
> Matt
>
> ------------------------
> Matt Morgan
> Mile High Meteorites
> http://www.mhmeteorites.com
> P.O. Box 151293
> Lakewood, CO 80215
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Received on Fri 25 Feb 2011 10:49:40 AM PST