[meteorite-list] Meteorite hunting (LAWS) by Country
From: Ed Deckert <edeckert_at_meteoritecentral.com>
Date: Sun, 10 Apr 2011 15:04:59 -0400 Message-ID: <B335B282EAC74A55A18D27DDA5ABC89E_at_MAINPC> Hi Al, You hit the nail square on the head. Maintaining a book like this could be like trying to herd cats. Given the instability in the Middle-East, with government changes, etc, the laws there can change by the hour. Unfortunately, if Michael Farmer and Robert Ward had such a publication with them, and quoted Oman's laws from it when they were taken into custody or during their "trial" - the outcome would not have been any different. Even so, it would be a great guide to help prevent meteorite hunters from breaking any laws. Ed ----- Original Message ----- From: "al mitt" <almitt at kconline.com> To: <meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com> Cc: "Roman Jirasek" <romanj at sympatico.ca>; "Martin Altmann" <altmann at meteorite-martin.de> Sent: Sunday, April 10, 2011 2:17 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorite hunting (LAWS) by Country Hi Martin and Roman, One other problem I would see if someone went to the trouble of trying to put all this in a reference guide to let would be hunters know what laws exist, is the probability of the laws always changing. It would be valid perhaps the first year then after that possible new laws might be in acted that could alter where hunters could hunt in different countries. If someone were to go to the trouble of trying to compose such a guide, I'd enlist meteorite enthusiast from around the globe to check out laws in various places, give them a time frame, then put together all the known area laws into the guide. You would no doubt have to have some areas listed as unknown and to hunt only after you check out local laws, get permission and so forth. Probably the most valid item would be to see if the landowner has rights on their own property. Negative aspect of all this is countries might see the guide and make new laws where none existed before hand. Creating a guide would certainly would be a monumental task that is for sure. --AL Mitterling ----- Original Message ----- From: "Martin Altmann" <altmann at meteorite-martin.de> To: <meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com> Sent: Sunday, April 10, 2011 8:47 AM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorite hunting (LAWS) by Country Hi Roman, meteorites are so scarce, that it is very unlikely that in many states a special legislation does exist for them at all. Currently you have more than 200 nations on the globe. Most of them are subdivided into smaller administrative units with own legal regulations. So you would have to check, which laws do exist, you would have to interpret existing laws, which weren't made for meteorites, whether they can be overstretched to cover meteorites and you would have to prove, whether different laws override each other. Simple examples: Analog.. in my little home state, the free state of Bavaria, it is forbidden to remove any artifact from the soil. So normally you'd say, anyone praising an artifact for sale, telling he found it in Bavaria, would act illegally. - Well, but we have another law, that despite the act of removing the artifact from the soil is illegal, nevertheless the finder becomes legal owner of the artifact. Drive 50 miles into another federal state, there you have a different legislation, there the state is owner of such a find. HUhuhu, the dimensions, because some try to lump meteorites together with a artifacts under one law: Per year the chief of the archeological office estimates, that more than 1 million of artifacts are lost due to this regulation in Bavaraia. Meteorites found per year in Bavaria: 0.02. Therefore we don't have a law for meteorites, the constitution interdicts to create laws for single cases. Other example - Neuschwanstein III, there the court decided not only about the question about the ownership landowner versus finder - which concerns whole Austria, but also whether the finder was legally allowed to pick up that stone. That was another, an environmental law, only valuable for the federal state of Tyrol. And there he was allowed to do so, cause the stone had a certain size only and he didn't use heavy equipment to remove it from the soil. So if the stone would have been larger, who knows... And anyway it was a court of first instance, a court of the next instance could have come to a different sentence. (But finder and landowner came to an agreement outside of court). Austria is as small as Indiana, but has 9 federal states. So you see Roman, where the problem is (if one can call it so, cause we're talking with meteorites still about weird trivia). You would have to check Himalayas of regulations and laws, whether there are some, whether there are none, you would have to interpret laws, which is at best and in case the job of a court, you would have to do that for different questions: Landowner vs. Finder. Hunting, Trespassing, Removal, Export. State versus individuals, ect. pp. - and that for thousands and thousands of regulations of thousands of administrative territories and that all considering different legal systems, you have some which work with precedences, others which make decisions on a case base...and so on. Also in some cases you will have laws, which are in contradiction to the constitution of the respective country, hence in the case of application not valuable.... And in the end you wouldn't despite all that not be able to give legally binding information. It's everything else than trivial. You saw it that even Schmitt&Barristers, lawyers, failed to give correct information about relatively simple looking regulations. And all in all, Roman - we shouldn't exaggerate!! On whole world and in all history, there exist almost no court cases about meteorites. And those few we have, were almost all between private parties, about who is the owner or about simple theft. And why do we have so few court decisions? Because meteorites are so rare and because quite all involved are mature and reasonable people living in reality, who come to agreements outside of any court. And involved are in fact only a couple of individuals worldwide - quite all the World give a fig for meteorites. It's a non-problem. But those involved: For all of them a new find of a meteorite is an exciting and joyful thing. So I think, we all shouldn't be too much influenced by the very few persons, who are not mature enough to welcome the great development meteoritics took, and who are of destructive nature acting with egoistic motivations and that's how these laws are made at all, by instigation of single individuals, as easily can be proved by the historical sources - because in the end, soberly checking the data it's evident, that they act contrary to the common welfare and the interest of their nations. Look Roman, although I feel sometimes so oooold, I'm not. But when I started - all these laws issues were absolutely no topic at all, and I count myself very lucky, to live exactly in these times! Because that what we have seen in meteoritics during the last two decades only, it was all the centuries before beyond any imagination. It's simply wonderful. And if there are really a few, who take umbrage to that enormous boost of earthly and planetary science by means of all these new finds made in the cold and hot deserts, sorry, can't express it else, then these are either no experts or sick in brain. Or is here anyone present on the list, who thinks, that the find of a meteorite is a salacity? Solution? You have to integrate these few fen fires. You have to teach them about history, you have to explain to them, what intensions former meteorite laws had. You have to show them the data, what had happened in countries, where laws were introduced and especially in comparison with countries, which stayed free. The data speak a crystal-clear language. Only like that, I guess, one can get them back to reason again and could avert further damage from meteoritics and science in the affected countries. Well, but if they refuse the communication - I wouldn't know, what to do. I guess thenonly the way to the appropriate ministry would remain left. To cause to become known there, what for disastrous results improper legislation brought along in many countries and how that most efficient, but cheapest form of space research and - if exists - the university structures - are or will be without need abandoned. Or - I mean, if it's possible that so unfunded articles are published in such highly renown media like BBC, NYT, New Scientist ect. - one could bring the facts, data, history there, well simply, how that science works and always worked - and what was lost already and what will be lost, if such kind of legislation will be applied. But better would be a resocialization of the "protectionists". I don't know. Why do we e.g. don't share that vision?: One easily could make out of Australia a second Oman! Immediately! Without no costs. And with the advantage, that other than in Oman, there are the old institutional collections still in place, in Big Sleep, but they still exist, one has only to wipe the cobwebs away - and still some rudiments of the former research and university structures still have survived. And I think, it would be welcomed there. Read the bi-annual reports of the Perth museum, they do want more meteorites. All what it costs would be to put aside some petty personal vanities, the cancellation of three (or how many they are) sentences of stone-old federal laws and a really reliable and constant appliance of the heritage act. Model: Canada. And it would cost some afternoons of work - but seen the meteoritical output in Australia, I guess the meteoricists in charge could spare that time for that important task. Well and soon one would have Aussie Martians, Lods, Acaps, Rs, HEDs, BRAs, Lunars and tons of new OCs in the Bulletins and much of them sampled and housed in the Aussie collections. Meteoritics would flourish again. New posts at universities would be created, more funds would sputter - and who knows, if you let the professional hunters in, perhaps we will have in future there a kg-pairing of Calcalong in the museum and the old hatchet, which anyway only the dodderers remember, could be buried once and for all. Why we don't want that!?! It's easy! And so endlessly more productive than to call names forth and back and to lose over that sight of the great scheme to that extent that laws are requested with aftermaths for meteoritics, which let Herostratus look like a school boy. Best! Martin -----Urspr?ngliche Nachricht----- Von: meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com [mailto:meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com] Im Auftrag von Roman Jirasek Gesendet: Sonntag, 10. April 2011 03:41 An: meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorite hunting (LAWS) by Country Hi Greg & James Just got around to reading your posts. Too bad no one wants to talk about this further, as we all need to know this stuff. James makes some good points, obviously there is no easy answer to this problem. And it seems like there is no one tackling this huge project. Not only do the written laws of many countries need to be addressed, but the actual knowledge on how to properly incorporate them on your visit to these different cultures. I can see more trouble in the future if this keeps getting ignored. Cheers, Roman Jirasek ----------------------------------------------------------- From: James Beauchamp falcon99 at sbcglobal.net Subject: [meteorite-list] Meteorite hunting (LAWS) by Country To: meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com Date: Wed Apr 6 14:53:25 EDT 2011 Hi all, I'm totally a newby on this particular list - and am a very new person to the study of meteorites, and of course finding them. So please understand that if anyone doesn't have a dog in the hunting debate, it's me. However, I do want to make a comment regarding the international discussions. Mike, you definitely have a dog in the legal discussion. You've lived it. I'm glad you made it home OK. Over the past 15 years, I've spent a considerable amount of military time in the middle east. 5 tours worth, including three combat ones. Many of those were working directly with government leaders of multiple levels, of at least 6 different nations and many more tribal backgrounds - Kurdish, to Bedouin, Sunni to Iraqi Christian and so on. We "westerners" tend to make some serious mistakes regarding interpretations of laws and customs. We are programmed by our culture to concentrate on the letters of the law, procedures and fine print, and discount the more human factors involved. This is not how most middle eastern countries work. It is a well proven fact that there are many levels of "citizenry" in soutwest asia, with wide variations therein. One of the first things I learned in Saudi Arabia is that you are always at the mercy of your sponsor (or sponsor organization), and for every level of removal from the cultural rule of law you are, you must compensate accordingly with deliberate diligence to stay out of even the hint of trouble. In Saudi Arabia, I was obviously not a citizen, not Muslim, not directly contracted by an industrial sponsor, and did not have an established personal relationship with relevant government officials. Many of our military members were arrested and detained for infractions a Saudi citizen would have been given nothing more than a verbal warning. A minor fine to a Saudi citizen could be a prison sentence for you. You MUST be careful. Be very careful in statements like "the law does not specifically state meteorites". That's a very western point of view that can get you into trouble. Regardless of what the law states in writing, the interpretation by judges will wildly vary. The definition of artifact is whatever they define it as. That could be a rock, arrow, meteorite, or teacup. My experience in Saudi was very good. I took the time to understand, accept, and appreciate the culture, and it fostered some wonderful friendships. But I also made serious effort to avoid trouble. Some countries are more liberal than others (Jordan Vs. Saudi, UAE Vs. Qatar), but be careful and be informed. Just saying that you need to fully understand the laws, customs, and cultural rules before leaping into assumptions - especially when you intend to leave with more than you came with. James --- On Wed, 4/6/11, Thunder Stone <stanleygregr at hotmail.com> wrote: > From: Thunder Stone <stanleygregr at hotmail.com> > Subject: [meteorite-list] Meteorite hunting (LAWS) by Country > To: meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > Date: Wednesday, April 6, 2011, 12:16 PM > > List: > This got me thinking: > Is there any documented source (that's reliable and up to > date) regarding the official laws for meteorite > hunting, collecting, and selling for each country? I > have read a lot of views on this matter on the list and > elsewhere, and it seems so silly not to have the correct > information available somewhere. It would be very helpful > for meteorite collectors to have this information available > and documented in one place; perhaps in a publication > somewhere. Knowing which countries require permits and > how to obtain them... etc. > Much Thanks, > Greg S. > > > > ______________________________________________ > Visit the Archives at > http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > Previous message: [meteorite-list] Meteorite hunting (LAWS) by Country Next message: [meteorite-list] Chicxulub Impact Crater focus for ocean drilling plans Messages sorted by: [ date ] [ thread ] [ subject ] [ author ] More information about the Meteorite-list mailing list ______________________________________________ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list ______________________________________________ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list ______________________________________________ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list Received on Sun 10 Apr 2011 03:04:59 PM PDT |
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