[meteorite-list] Who owns the meteorite?

From: Galactic Stone & Ironworks <meteoritemike_at_meteoritecentral.com>
Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2010 16:06:17 -0400
Message-ID: <AANLkTinbvRvdz8h4gXoJtWJNXXYEKEek2RHfcrvT0c1i_at_mail.gmail.com>

Hi Folks,

Here is a problem we face in a nation like America. On the one hand,
we like to keep any government regulation to a minimum, but on the
other hand, we often defer to (or call out for) government
clarification (regulation) when it comes to private matters.

We wouldn't be seeing a "need" or "case" for regulation if people on
all sides of the equation would behave like rational human beings.
But we have people who driven by profit and people who are driven by
ego, and this occurs on both the public and private side of the issue.
 This leads to unnecessary conflicts over catalyst events that should
never have taken place to start with.

Case in point, access to the Bar-T-Bar Ranch land around Meteor
Crater. We wouldn't see the current hard-line stance against
prospectors if those same prospectors had not left cattle gates wide
open, deep holes unfilled, and trash on the land they were searching.
And if we didn't have big egos disregarding logic, then we wouldn't
see the current hard-line stance against private involvement by
institutions and museums. Both sides, private and public, are giving
the opposing side ammunition to fight with, when it reality, there
should be no conflict in the first place.

It's like how we hate getting pulled over for a ticket for speeding
because it's necessary to keep the highways safe from people who might
do more than our own self-rationalized speeding. The same people who
curse the cop who writes the ticket, will call that same cop in a
hurry if an armed gang is invading their home. We don't want the
government, yet we can't seem to get along with each other without it.

The best thing we could do, as private individuals, to prevent further
regulation of meteorites, is to act like professionals, conduct
ourselves as good honest people, and be generous with our finds to
science and outreach. If profit is the focus of our activities then
the government is always going to come knocking with it's hand out and
the regulation pen in the other hand.

Best regards,

MikeG

PS - no government or entity created in modern human history "owns" a
meteorite. It's a 4+ billion year old relic of creation itself. Any
where it decides to drop in is decided by luck and chance, and anyone
who claims ownership of it is merely in denial over the fact that they
are a temporary caretaker at best.

----------------------------------------------------------------------
Mike Gilmer - Galactic Stone & Ironworks Meteorites

Website - http://www.galactic-stone.com
Facebook - http://www.facebook.com/galacticstone
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EOM - http://www.encyclopedia-of-meteorites.com/collection.aspx?id=1564
-----------------------------------------------------------------------


On 9/24/10, Steve Dunklee <steve.dunklee at yahoo.com> wrote:
> I agree and support the Count in his wish for clear laws on ownership of
> found meteorites. I guess that as what I was really trying to say. I was
> also supprised this did not come up when there was a fund started to give a
> meteorite to the school. When meteorites were found on school property.
> Cheers Steve
>
> On Fri Sep 24th, 2010 3:22 PM EDT Greg Hupe wrote:
>
>>Hi Guido and List,
>>
>>I had a question/thought about this topic as well. Since farmers operate on
>> BLM land through a lease agreement with the state, wouldn't their lease
>> dictate that any meteorites found on top "of the earth" of the leased
>> property belong to the farmers, as the Lorton case may suggest? If this is
>> accurate and/or law, I would think that any meteorites found "under the
>> earth" of a farmer's leased BLM land would be open game to the finders,
>> unless said BLM was off limits to meteorite collecting. Does this sound
>> accurate as far as the current BLM lands where it is still 'legal' to hunt
>> on BLM land? If BLM land becomes 'illegal' to hunt for meteorites,
>> wouldn't it still be legal to hunt on BLM land if hunters get written
>> permission (basically a permit) from the farmers who lease the land from
>> the BLM? Hunters could then hunt on the leased portion and any meteorites
>> found "on top of the earth" would be 'legal' to keep! I guess this
>> reasoning boils down to the
> wording the BLM/farmer lease agreement has regarding any minerals, objects,
> meteorites, artifacts, etc. making any such materials stay the property of
> the state, or if not mentioned, than the assumption would be that the farmer
> has the right to 'farm' these materials.
>>
>>Just some thoughts to ponder...
>>
>>Best regards,
>>Greg
>>
>>====================
>>Greg Hupe
>>The Hupe Collection
>>NaturesVault (eBay)
>>gmhupe at htn.net
>>www.LunarRock.com
>>IMCA 3163
>>====================
>>Click here for my current eBay auctions:
>> http://search.ebay.com/_W0QQsassZnaturesvault
>>
>>----- Original Message ----- From: <countdeiro at earthlink.net>
>>To: "Steve Dunklee" <steve.dunklee at yahoo.com>; <almitt2 at localnet.com>;
>> <meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com>
>>Sent: Friday, September 24, 2010 3:02 PM
>>Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Who owns the meteorite?
>>
>>
>>> Steve said "...it must belong to the school."
>>>
>>> I respectfully disagree with this statement and with the statement "
>>> ...it belongs to the Smithsonian."
>>>
>>> Public schools do not in themselves "own" property. The lands and
>>> improvements are typically the assets of local, or state government
>>> (i.e.. the citizens of that county, or state.) Their maintenance and
>>> operation are usually governed by an elected Board of Trustees. They, if
>>> made aware, would most probably decide the disposition of a find.
>>>
>>> Federal lands, including National Parks, Wilderness Areas, Mining Claims,
>>> Restricted Areas and lands managed by the Bureau of Land Management are
>>> subject to a hodge podge of regulations that directly, or indirectly
>>> affect the taking of meteorites. There is no "all encompassing directive
>>> that says all meteorites on all Federally held land "belongs" to the
>>> Smithsonian.
>>>
>>> Consider a " mining claim" or a "homestead" being proved up. There are
>>> many other examples...including the "issuance of a permit to hunt
>>> meteorites specifically on Federal, or State lands." Something I have
>>> personal experience with having recently joined with the permit holder to
>>> search ;ands off limits to those without a permit.
>>>
>>> Finally, in many states, Nevada being one, I have seen metorites
>>> considered minerals and as those mineral rights are with held from fee
>>> simple ownership of land. Therefore, the land owner has no right to the
>>> minerals on his own land. He must is sublect to complicated state mining
>>> and oil exploration law.
>>>
>>> This whole business is messy and arbitrary and can lead to no good. I
>>> would like the meteorite community to develop a lobbying arm to educate
>>> state and federal lawmakers and monitor and promote legislation that
>>> protects us before, not after, our activities are banned.
>>>
>>> Please spare us the arguments that it is expensive, etc. etc.
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>>
>>> Count Deiro
>>> IMCA 3536
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: Steve Dunklee <steve.dunklee at yahoo.com>
>>>> Sent: Sep 24, 2010 11:05 AM
>>>> To: almitt2 at localnet.com, meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com
>>>> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Who owns the meteorite?
>>>>
>>>> Ownership of meteorites is pretty clear in United States law. The owner
>>>> of a meteorite is the land owner. If one falls on my land it is mine. If
>>>> one falls on your land it is yours. If one falls on federal land it
>>>> belongs to the Smithsonian. So if one lands in a school yard it must
>>>> belong to the school. Other countrys may have different law. Cheers
>>>> Steve Dunklee
>>>>
>>>> On Thu Sep 23rd, 2010 12:48 AM EDT almitt2 at localnet.com wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Hi Ron and all,
>>>>>
>>>>> If this is going to be the case, if you get a permit to hunt federal
>>>>> lands then you are being granted a lease to hunt and all material
>>>>> should belong to the finder then. Perhaps this is an interpatation of
>>>>> the law we can live with.
>>>>>
>>>>> --AL Mitterling
>>>>>
>>>>> Quoting R N Hartman <rhartman04 at earthlink.net>:
>>>>>
>>>>>> So regarding the article, in essence this interpretation is saying
>>>>>> that if you have a lease on land at which time a meteorite lands on
>>>>>> it, you have legal rights to it. But you must have the lease, not be
>>>>>> wandering down a public road or across a school yard, or even being on
>>>>>> a dry lake or the open desert. Yes??
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Ron Hartman
>>>>>
>>>>>
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>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
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Received on Fri 24 Sep 2010 04:06:17 PM PDT