[meteorite-list] Secret BLM maps

From: Adam Hupe <raremeteorites_at_meteoritecentral.com>
Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2010 18:35:06 -0700 (PDT)
Message-ID: <243002.76401.qm_at_web30705.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Jason,

I have no idea what you are getting at but simply said, I do not have to agree
with a law in order to abide by it. Breaking laws will do no good and could
result in all land becoming off limits which is nearly the case with treasure
hunting. Without weight limits for rock hounds, somebody could remove an entire
outcrop, like the Alamo breccia for instance, and build an mansion with it.
Then they could go back and build a rock fence around the 800 acre property
leaving very little for other hobbyists.


Best Regards,

Adam



----- Original Message ----
From: Jason Utas <meteoritekid at gmail.com>
To: Meteorite-list <meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com>
Sent: Thu, November 4, 2010 6:04:56 PM
Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Secret BLM maps

Adam, All,
I don't understand the hypocrisy of your agreeing to the 250 lb per
year maximum, while crying 'foul' at stricter laws being imposed by
different branches of our government.

If you were arguing about the right and wrong of collecting meteorites
and other rocks from a moral standpoint, the number is a purely
arbitrary one. As a "rights" issue, the fact that the law is there in
any way, shape, or form, inhibiting your "right" to collect rocks on
public land, is paramount. Either you should be allowed to collect
what you want to -- or you shouldn't.

This is why:

For us meteorite hunters, by and large, the law is entirely
irrelevant. I'm probably never going to find a meteorite that weighs
more than a few kilograms, even if I go to a known strewn field with
large meteorites laying around. Even then, the BLM doesn't seem to
care when meteorites like the Glorietta Mountain main mass are removed
from federal land, so...I guess it doesn't matter either way. As long
as you don't do something stupid like going to the Smithsonian with
your three tonne iron, you should be fine.
So the fact that the BLM restricts collecting more than 250 lbs of
rocks per year means literally nothing to me.

Which is why, I think, you're in favor of the 250 lb restriction that
the BLM used to (or does still) have in place, regarding meteorites.

But what if you were to happen upon the next "Old Woman," and the
government actually pursued their rightful ownership (as per existing
laws)? Right now, you apparently support the 250 lb BLM limit. But
the next time either one of us goes hunting, we might have a damn good
reason to fight that law tooth and nail.

Yet there are more problems. Think about this from a scientific point
of view; why is a 1 tonne meteorite scientifically more important than
a ten gram one? Well, this is where meteorites start to differ from
minerals. Generally speaking, if you find a single mineral specimen
out in the desert, it's not going to be of great scientific interest,
and you probably wouldn't do much damage to the surrounding terrain if
you were to pocket it and take it home. If you were to find a deposit
of something rare or interesting, it would be a very different matter.

If you find a small meteorite out in the desert...well, take, for
example, my tiny Acapulcoite. I don't know if one could say that it
is "more important" than your average 250 lb meteorite, but I would
like to point out that there have been many meteorites found in this
country that have weighed more than 250 lbs - but there is only one
other Acapulcoite.
If rarity is what defines scientific importance, size is of little
consequence. After all, Steve Arnold's 1,400 lb Brenham may be
impressive, and a spectacular example of a pallasite/meteorite in
general, but it has contributed next to nothing of our knowledge of
meteorites or understanding of the solar system. The Acfer 094
meteorite, on the other hand - that's important, primitive stuff that
contains presolar grains, etc. It's helping us understand what was
going on ~4.6 billion years ago.
So, with regard to meteorites, size really isn't what makes them
"important." Hence a "250 lb" restriction is essentially worthless
with regards to space rocks.

Now, if the law was intended to preserve the landscape by preventing
commercial mining endeavors...that's not going to happen with
meteorites, because that's not how they're found. Even the removal of
a huge iron like the Old Woman...well, it returned the landscape to
what it should have looked like before a large, alien piece of iron
happened to fall there. So that aspect of it doesn't really apply.

But along that line - "250 lb" maximum is as arbitrary as any law.
What if they had originally stated that you could collect a tonne?
Ten kilograms? Nothing? It's arbitrary.

Based on what you've said, and I'll quote, "We have the right to
remove 250 lbs of
rocks a year without a permit. Anything that hinders this right goes against the
laws our legislators set forth."

If the original law had stated that you were not allowed to collect
any rocks, I assume that you would go along with it without complaint,
because that would be 'the law our legislators set forth.'

So if you're not talking about your "right to collect anything you
want on public land," but are rather arguing about your right to
collect "up to 250 lbs of mineral specimens per year, as dictated by a
law," we have to look at things differently. You seem to be
questioning the right of the BLM to set rules and regulations
regarding the land which it has been given to oversee.

I think the BLM has that right. If you disagree, I assume that you
would question the legitimacy of their imposing *any* regulations on
the land they oversee, since there's no reason to single this one rule
out...except personal interest, of course.

If you think it's an issue, what I would suggest is going to
Washington (state), finding a meteorite, and then seeing if the BLM
will try to take it. Or better yet, if they try to give you a ticket
or jail you, sue them and take matters to as high a court as possible.
I'm pretty sure the ACLU would take something of an interest in the
case, though you might have a word with someone from their group
beforehand.

We elect people to oversee and protect our nation and its resources,
and these senators and representatives in some cases have apparently
decided that meteorites are some of the things that need protecting
from increasing commercialization. While you and I may not agree with
them, you are, of course, entitled to disagree and make your opinion
heard. You're even welcome to lobby and try to get the laws and
regulations of whatever state you wish (Washington, by the sound of
it) changed. Even the BLM.
It can be done.

Meanwhile, we're legally obliged to abide by such laws until they are
changed, for better or for worse.

Complaining on here doesn't do much, but I agree - it's interesting to
hear nonetheless. I just have the feeling that these supposed BLM
regulations that you're complaining of in Washington a) likely don't
really exist, and b) probably wouldn't be enforced even if someone
over there was trying to implement them. Seeing as the BLM is an
organization which oversees land in twelve states, I very much doubt
that they would start prohibiting the collection of meteorites from
BLM land in a single state -- especially one in which they're not
being found.

Regards,
Jason

On Thu, Nov 4, 2010 at 4:35 PM, Adam Hupe <raremeteorites at yahoo.com> wrote:
> And being that it is federal public land, we have the right to remove 250 lbs
>of
> rocks a year without a permit. Anything that hinders this right goes against
>the
> laws our legislators set forth. Requiring a permit in Washinton and Oregon is
>a
> clear design on our liberty.
>
>***********************************************************************************
>*
>
>
> Collecting Limits
> Collecting rocks for landscaping and other personal uses is allowed without a
> permit, as long as the use is non commercial and no mechanized equipment is
> used (other than a car or pickup truck). A permit is not needed if you limit
> your collecting 25 pounds plus one piece per day, not to exceed 250 pounds in
> one calendar year, and no specimen greater than 250 pounds may be collected
> without a special permit. The material must be for personal use only and
shall
>
> not be sold or bartered to commercial dealers. Taking rock from stockpiles is
> not allowed.
>**********************************************************************************
>*
>
>
>
> Link to BLM Site:
> http://www.blm.gov/ca/st/en/fo/elcentro/recreation/rocks.html
>
>
> Happy hunting while you still can,
>
> Adam
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: Jeff Grossman <jgrossman at usgs.gov>
> To: meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com
> Sent: Thu, November 4, 2010 4:24:11 PM
> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Secret BLM maps
>
> Although I agree that an outright ban on meteorite collecting is not the
> best policy, I fail to see what rights you think are being violated.
> Are you saying that people have a constitutional right to do anything
> and everything they want on federal lands without regulation? I don't
> think this is a civil rights issue; it is a public land-use policy issue.
>
> Jeff
>
> On 2010-11-04 7:05 PM, Adam Hupe wrote:
>> I agree that these heritage sites should be protected. My only concern is
how
>> BLM field agents convey information. They are public servants and should
tell
>> the truth. If they do not know the laws, then they should simply state this
>> instead of making things up. I get a different message from every one I have
>> talked to in regards to meteorite hunting. Washington and Oregon are now
>> definitely off limits and there are no permits for meteorite hunting
> available.
>> This is a simple way to violet somebodies rights; Tell them they need a
permit
>> and then don't issue any.
>>
>> This is a sore subject for me since I can no longer search on public lands in
>>my
>> ex-state of Washington Thus never achieving a goal I set. Meteorites are now
>> considered treasure and will be protected as such in some areas.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Best Regards,
>>
>> Adam
>> ______________________________________________
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>
>
> --
> Dr. Jeffrey N. Grossman phone: (703) 648-6184
> US Geological Survey fax: (703) 648-6383
> 954 National Center
> Reston, VA 20192, USA
>
>
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Received on Thu 04 Nov 2010 09:35:06 PM PDT