[meteorite-list] It's now an even sadder day...what happened toethics??

From: Jason Utas <meteoritekid_at_meteoritecentral.com>
Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2010 16:05:28 -0800
Message-ID: <93aaac891003091605m2f17b6c4nfceec2df72b1c6bb_at_mail.gmail.com>

So, what you're saying, Martin, is that you advocate hunters lying
about where they find meteorites so that they can keep them.
Because that was his question.
...Interesting.
Jason

On Tue, Mar 9, 2010 at 4:02 PM, Martin Altmann
<altmann at meteorite-martin.de> wrote:
> Hello Dennis,
>
> Nininger tried to make more or less successfully his living in selling
> meteorites, he found.
> The difference to today is, that today institutions like universities and
> museums don't have those financial means anymore to acquire meteorites like
> in the 19th and 20th century (and that there aren't any big private sponsors
> anymore like e.g. a Monnig).
> And that at a time, where meteorites are much more cheaper than at
> Nininger's and Ward's area and that now, where the institutes have the full
> choice of rare and rarest types to an extent unknown before.
>
>>which seem
>>to be of little or no value to science.
>
> The devices and methods of measuring have changed a lot since Nininger's
> times. For very most of the analyses of today only small cuts are required.
> And many institutes are happy, not to have to acquire a complete find, but a
> small fraction from it, sufficient for their purposes.
> Like that, many many labs around the globe, can work on the same stone.
>
> Please use the Bulletin database.
> http://tin.er.usgs.gov/meteor/metbull.php
>
> Mark "non-Antarctic" and choose "Sort by year" and "200 lines/page"
> Enter an asterisk in the text field.
>
> You will get displayed 75 pages.
> Go to page 48 - this is the time, were I purchased my first meteorite.
>
> The 26 following pages later, are the meteorites we had at that time from
> the last 2000 years.
>
> But the 47 pages before - there you will understand, that I'm glad and
> happy, that there were people who filled (and the least entries there stem
> from non-private organisations) these pages in only 30 years and we should
> all fight for them being able to continue to write this great story.
>
> They were able to fill these pages, because they were allowed to make profit
> with their finds.
> Among them are individuals, who brought to light many more meteorites of
> special scientific interest than any Nininger, thus they deserve our highest
> respect and not laws, declaring them to criminals.
>
> Btw. I highly doubt, that Nininger ever sold in his life a new find of an
> ordinary chondrite at an purchase power equivalent of 25$ a kg, or a
> howardite at 10$ or 15$/g.
>
> I don't want to come back to those times, where one single gram of a lunaite
> was priced like today a whole pound, or an ACAP at 1000$/g, where you pay
> today 30$/g.
> Nor would curators and scientists prefer that.
>
> Dennis, you have to offer alternatives.
> The countries, if they eliminate the private sector, have to find the stuff
> by their own.
> Past prooved, that this wasn't possible. Today we have a single periodic
> official hunting party outside of Antarctica, which hunts 3-6 weeks per
> year. That's all.
>
> Other alternative would be for the countries to employ the so successful
> private hunters. With contracts, pension plans ect.
>
> Third alternative, back to the roots, the countries buy the meteorites from
> the finders - that was the method of the recent 200 years, it worked
> perfectly and especially today it's the most cost-effective way.
> The funds needed are relatively marginal.
>
> Dennis, that meteorites cost money is really nothing new. It was ALWAYS like
> that and it is not an ethical problem.
> To expect the private meteorite sector to work for free, is a weird
> expectation. You wouldn't neither expect a firm producing microprobes to
> give such a million-$-device for free to an university.
>
> It is a matter of course, that in all branches of science, the institutes,
> if they can't produce their research objects by their own, are buying these
> objects.
>
> The private sector offered in the last 15 years and unseen and incredible
> performance to the public sector.
> The reaction was that in so many countries laws were introduced, to kick the
> private sector out.
> But the performance the public sector did then, to replace the private
> finds, was extremely poor, totally insufficient and for the tax-payer
> extremely more expensive seen the funds used per find.
>
> I see the crisis is not a thing about private hunting and commercial trade.
> It's the cruel short-back of funds of the institutions.
> No institute which needs objects similar to meteorites for its research can
> do its job, if it has a budget of a few single thousands or sometimes even
> only hundreds of USD a year to purchase its research objects.
>
> The private sector did what they could. Meteorites cost a fraction of that,
> what they had cost all over the 200 years ago. And the private sector
> delivered such a spectrum of types in such a volume, no official activity
> ever will be able to rival, also not the Antarctic campaigns.
>
> Shall this have an end now?
>
> You are alerted, because you see USA threatened by these laws.
> In many other countries it became already reality.
>
> Already today, if a visitor goes into a museum with a meteorite collection,
> it happens to him, that he don't feel to visit an institution of cutting
> edge research, but the meteorites seem to him, to be exhibits telling a lore
> of a past epoch.
>
> If that shall be our future,
> I say: Good Night!
>
> Good night :-)
> Martin
>
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Urspr?ngliche Nachricht-----
> Von: meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com
> [mailto:meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com] Im Auftrag von Dennis
> Beatty
> Gesendet: Dienstag, 9. M?rz 2010 20:17
> An: Martin Altmann
> Cc: Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com
> Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] It's now an even sadder day...what happened
> toethics??
>
> Hello Martin,
>
> I am glad that we have had people like Nininger "out there" hunting
> meteorites and helping us to understand their significance. ?It is
> because of their efforts that we have the treasured collections which
> you mentioned in your e-mail. ?However, I don't believe that Mr.
> Nininger would be pleased with what is happening today. ?Instead of
> being treated as treasures of knowledge and items of beauty,
> meteorites have become a commodity. ?Specimens are now cut and chipped
> into small specks (in some cases nothing more than powder) which seem
> to be of little or no value to science. ?All in the name of profit.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Dennis
>
>
> On Mar 9, 2010, at 10:34 AM, Martin Altmann wrote:
>
>> Hi Dennis,
>>
>> the problem is, that meteorite are found by private individuals.
>> The American people wouldn't have almost any meteorites, if not
>> people like
>> Nininger, Ward, or today Clary, Verish and all these hunters, who
>> would
>> banned by such laws, would have found them.
>>
>> See Australia, when I bought my first meteorites 30 years ago,
>> Australia ranked on place number 2 in meteoritics and had so many
>> new finds.
>> They made laws,
>> now less than 1 meteorite is still found per year on the whole
>> continent,
>> while in USA, where private hunting and ownership is liberal, many
>> dozens
>> new classified finds were made per year, ?and even more not yet
>> classified
>> and new main masses of old finds were recovered like Brenham, like
>> Glorieta,
>> and also much less specimens of the big showers like West, or the new
>> Arizone strewnfield would be on public display and in the
>> institutes, if not
>> these private hunters would have hunted them.
>>
>> Australia btw. where so strict laws are in force, has the much better
>> hunting grounds than the U.S.
>> Dennis, seen the explosion of finds during the last 15 years, in
>> Sahara, in
>> Oman and in USA,
>> it is really like that, that Australia without these laws, could
>> have now
>> already several lunaites, Martians, Rumurutiites, ACAPs and how the
>> scientifically especially interesting meteorites types all are
>> called, in
>> their national collections and museums.
>> Iiiiif only they would allow private hunting.
>>
>> The personal gain... the best US-desert hunters don't even make the
>> minimum
>> wage which is mandatory in some of the federal states with their
>> finds.
>> Simply because you have to pick up hundreds of meteoritic stones
>> first,
>> until you have your first eucrite and thousands, if you want to have a
>> planetary one.
>>
>> The right way, to get meteorites in public collections is to
>> encourage and
>> to support private meteorite hunting!
>>
>> Dennis, I don't know, where you live - and which is your next major
>> public
>> meteorite collection. Let it be the Field museum, the AMNH in New
>> York, TCU
>> Fort Worth, New Mexico... ?almost all meteorites displayed there do
>> stem
>> originally from private collectors, private finders, private dealers
>> and
>> private hunters.
>>
>> And to support private meteorite hunting and to take the stones into
>> the
>> institutes and museums doesn't cost a thing.
>> E.g. we here in Europe - an episode only in history - had once the
>> EUROMET
>> project. These made btw. two of the three last official expeditions in
>> Australia.
>> They had only personnel costs - only for personnel - of 15-20
>> million todays
>> USD per year.
>> Dennis - there aren't found enough meteorites on Earth per year,
>> that you
>> could spend 20 millions a year.
>>
>> Well, and such laws do not protect meteorites, neither do they protect
>> property of the people,
>> what they do is, to protect meteorites from being found.
>>
>> Without meteorites, you can't do meteorite science, whithout finding
>> them,
>> the people has nothing.
>>
>> The solution is relatively simple,
>> We wouldn't have to discuss about laws,
>> If the nations would equip financially their universities and national
>> meteorite collections in the same way again like the 150 years before.
>>
>> Cause then, we all can turn back to business as usual.
>>
>> Best!
>> Martin
>>
>>
>> -----Urspr?ngliche Nachricht-----
>> Von: meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com
>> [mailto:meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com] Im Auftrag von
>> Dennis
>> Beatty
>> Gesendet: Dienstag, 9. M?rz 2010 18:46
>> An: meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com
>> Betreff: [meteorite-list] It's now an even sadder day...what happened
>> toethics??
>>
>> I have sporadically read the comments regarding the implementation of
>> new (or newly enforced) BLM rules...and am saddened and disappointed
>> at the overall tone of the responses. ?What is it about us and our
>> love of meteorites that gives us the right for personal gain?? ?As I
>> understand it, any item found on public land belongs to the American
>> people not some lucky individual that happens to stumble across
>> something of value. ?I have read several posts where fellow collectors
>> have stated that should they find a meteorite on public land, they
>> will merely "refind" it on private land. ?Sheesh!! ?I will be going
>> back through this thread much more carefully and if those types
>> comments are tied to any dealers, I will definitely not patronize
>> them. ?And were is the IMCA on this?? ?Isn't ethical dealing one of
>> their mainstays??
>>
>> Perhaps I am naive, but I had envisioned our group as seekers of
>> knowledge rather than modern day anti-government, do as I damn well
>> please rustlers.
>>
>> Well, there goes two cents...
>>
>> Dennis Beatty
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Received on Tue 09 Mar 2010 07:05:28 PM PST