[meteorite-list] Labeling specimens
From: Martin Altmann <altmann_at_meteoritecentral.com>
Date: Sat, 27 Feb 2010 16:33:31 +0100 Message-ID: <002401cab7c2$3beb8670$07b22959_at_name86d88d87e2> Agreed Martin! And btw. meteorites are a kind of natural "products". Anyway Steve, meteorite collecting is quite the safest field of colleting of all. Nowhere else there are so strict requirements for the authentication of the collectible items. A quadruple safety you have: 1. New finds and falls get classified. This is done by independent and non-commercial labs and by the few experts on the planet, who are specialized in that. These classifications and evaluations are done according hard physical and chemical criteria. Therefore it is somewhat different, as let's say with a reviewer or a evaluator in the arts sector, where the statement he delivers strongly depends on his individual education, his experience and on his gut instincts. Often such analyses can take 1-2 years, before the owner of the stone can think about circulating that material. And with rarer types often several labs are working on the classification. A sample of that "collectible" will be kept in an independent institute for reference purposes and further studies. 2. The results of that "evaluation" are reviewed by a central scientific institution, by a panel consisting of leading experts of that branch of science. Called the NomCom of MetSoc. All basic data of all meteorites are collected in one place - and are centrally published and for everyone accessible in the Meteoritical Bulletin. 3. Meteorites are the rarest collectibles in existence. Only a very few "players" take part in the World-scene of meteorites. No dealer or collector could trade non-authentic specimens, because if he gets caught, his reputation would be fully ruined and he couldn't take part in the meteorite World any longer. (Such cases happened). The meteorite scene, scientists, hunters, collectors, dealers are a dense network. And meteorites are so rare, that especially with the meteorites with "names" and with the rarer (expensive) types, there do not exist "anonymous" meteorites. No such meteorite, where not other collectors do have samples to compare and where other participants of the collecting field do exactly now, how that material looks like. 4. IMCA and its members are permanently monitoring that "market". Whenever I buy a coin, an artefact, a Picasso or a Duesenberg, then I don't have such a multiple standard of safety like when I buy a meteorite. >graded and authenticated by the... Is theoretically possible. IMCA would have to employ 20-30 fulltime experts and bureau people. Sellers would have to send in each specimen to get it sent back. Shipping, working places, working materials... Waiting time, sellers in turn had to higher helpers... That costs. Meteorite prices of these years hit rock bottom. Meteorite sellers would have no choice else, then to pass on the additional costs of such an additional authentication process to the collectors. If I look into ebay... most stuff is in the 10-50$ range. If the collectors would be willing to pay 50-250$ for the very same stuff, then we can do it. So I can't see a win-win-situation. Where should be the advantage to create a fifth instance of safety, if the costs for the collector will explode then? Nor do I see an advantage for the collector, to create an investor market. Collectors strongly profit from the circumstance, that the meteorite market is so small. That most people on Earth do not know, that you can buy a piece of Mars, Moon, Vesta or what a brachinite or a rumurutiite shall be at all. The quantity of "goods" is very limited. Just look in the Bulletin Database, how few of the most common achondrite class, the HEDs were found in Sahara, Oman... and remember, how short time it took, that the largest stone find ever, NWA 869 with 7 tons, was completely absorbed by "the market", think about how fast the most ubiquist meteorite ever, Gibeon (the all-time-Campo of the 20th century) after 1999, or the tons and tons of Sikhote-Alin. If we had only 2-3 big investors, how they are very common in the antiques or arts market, the meteorite market would be completely empty in 1-2 years. Meteorites are extremely rare stuff and not reproducible at will. Steve, take the P?rigord or Alba truffles, which are easier to hunt like a Brenham or a NWA-OC - each year much more of them are found then the complete tonnage of all finds from 10 years Oman hunting and more than meteorites are found per year. Difference is, that for a kilo-chunk of an ordinary, averagely weathered NWA-chondrite - that stuff what makes up 90%+ of all (non-iron) finds, you're not paying 4000 or 7000$ like for a kg truffles, but currently 25 to 50$ at Bessey and friends. With the money paid for 2-3 top sales each year of single top-items of the art sector or the antiques sector or the mineral&fossil sector - you can buy out the complete meteorite world market. That's why also for me that laws debate is in my eyes so hysterical. Instead to tell everywhere fairy tales, about meteorite people getting billionaires and poor science and crying for laws, those guys and gals should just care for getting the funds for a single mid-sized research project - like it is common use in EACH and EVERY branch of institutional science too - and they simply could buy off all meteorites of da World completely and at will and at peanuts compared to that, what their ancestors had to pay. Of course, if some of the top twenty World collections, have an annual budget for meteorite purchases of 1000$ to 10,000$ only - then they might feel like the prohibition-yellers.... But it's not our fault, if they have such funds lower than the village museum of Poopaloosa - they have to care for that, we aren't entitled to do that or to be heard. So the collectors profit to an extreme degree from the circumstance, that the meteorite "market" is all in all so - and that word has also a positive meaning - so "amateurish". (lat. "amare" means "to love"). If it wouldn't be like that - meteorite collecting would be an activity only for very wealthy people (and the countries would have then really to think about legal restrictions). Therefore I can't see a win-win-situation, if the "market" would be more professionalized (respectively it would be a win-win only for the dealers and hunters). Cheers! Martin -----Urspr?ngliche Nachricht----- Von: meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com [mailto:meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com] Im Auftrag von msgmeteorites at googlemail.com Gesendet: Samstag, 27. Februar 2010 14:37 An: meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] Labeling specimens Hi Steve, I have to say that I disagree in relation to 'slabbing' meteorites as is done in coin market. For me as a collector I collect for the variety and difference in specimens and would definitely not want a display cabinet filled with identical sized specimens lined up like dominoes. That would hold no interest for me whatsoever. I don't primarily collect for investment, I obviously know the value of specimens but for me its the science and history and aesthetics of individual specimens that attract me. In all honesty if meteorites were traded like silver or gold it would put me off the hobby. Each to their own though and your opinion is appreciated Cheers Martin Sent using BlackBerry? from Orange -----Original Message----- From: Steve Dunklee <steve.dunklee at yahoo.com> Date: Sat, 27 Feb 2010 02:28:17 To: <meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com>; martin goff<msgmeteorites at googlemail.com> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Labeling specimens I have said this before and I am saying it again! The meteorite comunnity needs to take some lessons from the rare coin dealers and start sellling specimens in packages with standards. Hermatically sealed specimens of standard size and provanance, sealed in thin collector sized cases. To create an investor market we need to sell 1 cm square slices 4mm thick in sealed dessicated containers that are tamper proof and graded like collector coins. this would be a lot better than the current method of selling irregular chunks sent in a baggy with a business card. by establishing a standard of grading for collector meteorites we will create a larger market of collector specimins with a higher value which will allow them to be traded like gold or silver on the commodities market. and dramitically increase the vALUE OF METEORITES FOR EVERYONE ON THE LIST. I may have problems trying to figure out if a meteorite is a 4 or a 5 but if its in a dime sized container graded and authenticated by the imca. it would be a win win situation cheers Steve Dunklee --- On Sat, 2/27/10, martin goff <msgmeteorites at googlemail.com> wrote: > From: martin goff <msgmeteorites at googlemail.com> > Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Labeling specimens > To: meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > Date: Saturday, February 27, 2010, 8:50 AM > All, > > Thanks for your all your comments on and off list, most > interesting. I > think i am being steered > away from directly labelling my stones unless they are NWA > or > unclassified. However it seems a bit of a double standard > that if i > were to label my specimens myself it would be somehow > frowned upon yet > we as collectors value specimens with Nininger/Huss numbers > etc. If > for example a specimen was obtained say from the Manchester > museum > with one of their recently applied labels on would any of > us remove the > label? I very much doubt it, we would prize that specimen > as showing > provenance from that collection, that would match their > catalogue etc. > etc. In 50 or 100 or however many years that specimen would > only get > more and more historical and that label have more and more > importance > attached to it. > > I suppose my point is that would we now have the same > number of > Nininger/Huss etc.labelled stones if they didn't have > numbers written > directly on them? If say they had been displayed/sold in a > bag or box > with a label but no markings on, over time would some have > have been > separated from their boxes/bags and labels? I would hazard > a guess > that quite a few would have suffered this fate and now we > would be > left with some unidentifiable stones. > > Although by saying this i am placing no importance > whatsoever on me as > an individual collector or my own numbers as being valuable > other than > to avoid the situation of misidentified or unidentified > specimens in > the future. As only temporary custodians of our collections > surely > making sure that our collections can easily be passed on > without any > missing info is of prime importance? > > Numbering specimens directly is surely the most foolproof > method of > achieving this? All the labels on boxes/bags and display > stands etc. > are meaningless when the specimen is removed. All the > photos of the > specimen stored either in hard copy or digital form are > subject to > being lost or destroyed. I know these are all extreme > circumstances > and most of the time these steps that we take will be > absolutely fine > as specimens stay with their displays/cards etc. but if > there is a > possibility, however small of accidents happening should we > not do > more? > > As an example of the situation i want to avoid see the > photo of the > orphaned stone in the article on a recent visit to the > Manchester > museum (http://www.bimsociety.org/article-manchester.shtml) If > this > had an original number on it it probably would not be in > the situation > its in now. Its more than a distinct possibility that this > is stone > from a historical fall and yet we may never know........ > > Anyway, some food for thought! > > Cheers > > > Martin > ______________________________________________ > Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > ______________________________________________ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list Received on Sat 27 Feb 2010 10:33:31 AM PST |
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