[meteorite-list] Meteorite Men - Where do the dollar valuescomefrom?

From: Galactic Stone & Ironworks <meteoritemike_at_meteoritecentral.com>
Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 07:26:26 -0500
Message-ID: <e51421551002180426i2b80b723l60d22dae871d53a6_at_mail.gmail.com>

Hi Steve, Jason and List,

I woke up this morning with the intention of writing a thoughtful
reply to Steve's last post, but Jason Utas already beat me to it.

I wasn't trying to be critical. I like the show a lot and have not
missed an episode yet. My wife and I make time to watch it every
Wednesday, and we enjoy it together. I have fun pointing out the
people I "know" while watching the show. It's funny because Dr.
Garvie recently invited me to come to ASU and smell their Murchison
samples and then I said to my wife - "Hey look, that's the guy who
said I can come smell his meteorites.", and she got a laugh out of
that. It's fun a show and I hope it continues to be successful - not
just for Steve and Geoff (which kudos to them), but for the whole
meteorite community.

But (you knew there was a but!), I have some reservations about the
emphasis on dollar amounts. The network and producers know that
nothing motivates the general public like money and that in this
economy, treasure hunting is very popular. Let's face it, not
everyone shares our sometimes-irrational love of space rocks. So I
can imagine the network/producers (or whoever calls these types of
shots) pushing for more emphasis on the profit angle of meteorite
hunting - to keep the lay public interested and watching the show.
That angle alone won't snag new viewers who are completely
uninterested in meteorites, but it may convince a few who are sitting
on the fence to watch.

Jason and Steve, you both raise good points. Something is only worth
what someone will pay for it. I once paid $100 for a 1mg speck of
Sylacauga. That is an astounding $100,000.00 a gram. But, I
seriously doubt I could sell a 1-gram fragment of Sylacauga for $100K.
 We may know the ways of the market and how collectors spend their
money, but the general lay public does not. Those of us reading this
on the List, we know what Steve and Jason just said is true. But I
can imagine a newbie watching the show and walking away with the idea
that he can find a half-million dollar rock (that is not a planetary
and weighs less than 1 kilo) in the desert and actually get that much
money for it at auction from Christies or some other big auction
house. We know the realities of the market - some of the viewers
probably do not. It would be nice to hear Steve or Geoff mention
something along the lines of what Steve just posted - that yes, the
specimen is "worth" that much, but it will probably never bring that
much from a sale. The only way a million-dollar (or half-million
dollar) meteorite is going to bring in that much money is if the owner
insures it, then it burns up in a house fire, and the insurance
company cuts a big check for it.

As for Tagish Lake - only a government would pay that kind of money
for something. Most private individuals couldn't afford to fork over
almost a million dollars for a 800-gram briquette. In the US, the
finder of that 800 gram specimen would still be sitting on it and
hoping for a sale someday. (or an insured house fire)

Don't get me wrong. I am not picking on Sonny's awesome specimen.
That is truly an amazing find and any meteorite hunter would cream
himself upon finding it. The only thing better would be if Sonny
found the first US lunaite. And my dollar amount gripe was
specifically targeted at Sonny's CM1. Even those dry lake bed
weathered chondrites seem overpriced at $1.50 a gram or $2 a gram. I
guess they are probably worth that much now because they have been on
TV, but I can buy prettier weathered ordinary-chondrites from NWA for
a 20 cents a gram. A collector looking for a cool rock that was on TV
and was found by a famous meteorite hunter will pay extra for an OC
from Meteorite Men - but most collectors who buy weathered OC's are
also the types who look for bargains and will buy the stones that cost
.20 cents a gram and pass on the more expensive ones, regardless of
their connection to TV. Heck, I just traded 100 grams of trinitite
for 4000 grams of weathered uNWA stones. I won't say what my cost on
trinitite is, but I can say that the batch of uNWA I traded for is
prettier than the dry lake bed specimens (for the most part, I do have
some UGLY ones though) and my cost was less than $1 a gram -
substantially less. (FWIW, the ugliest ones are going into a rock
tumbler)

I just don't want this emphasis on dollar values to come back and bite
us in the ass. I can imagine Steve (or any hunter) going up to some
landowner and attempting to broker a deal to hunt on the land, and the
landowner will expect $10,000 for every 100-gram OC that is pulled out
of the dirt on his land - because there is an inflated sense of what
these stones are worth. On the List, we know that a meteorite's
stated value often has an asterisk next to it, and I think it's
important that the general public knows that as well.

Best regards and happy huntings,

MikeG






On 2/18/10, meteorhntr at aol.com <meteorhntr at aol.com> wrote:
> Jason,
>
> I agree getting $700,000 in green bills is a long shot, but if it can be
> traded for, say 14 items each in the $50,000 range, and those could be
> converted to green cash, is it wrong to say it is worth that.
>
> Need I remind everyone that the finder of the Tagish Lake 800 gram rock
> (similar in size and composition as Sonny's) got $800,000 in Canadian money
> for his find.
>
> Sonny is in the business, and as such, he really might realize $700k for his
> CM1 rock over time. Could he take it to a pawn shop in vegas and get
> $700,000? No, I would think not.
>
> But if someone else finds a CM1 here in the US and wants to sell theirs for
> $72/g ($50,000 / 699g) then cool.
>
> Steve
>
>
> Sent from my BlackBerry Smartphone provided by Alltel
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jason Utas <meteoritekid at gmail.com>
> Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2010 21:29:05
> To: Meteorite-list<meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com>
> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorite Men - Where do the dollar values
> comefrom?
>
> Hell Mike, Steve, and List,
> Right, but you're applying the price per gram that would apply to
> small pieces in retail to a much larger stone.
> A single gram may be worth a thousand dollars (in this case, it's
> probably justified, given what comparable material is known to sell
> for), but the simple fact of the matter is that it would take decades
> to sell off 700 grams at that price in small pieces. Ask any dealer
> who's held a stable asking price for material for which they are the
> only source.
> As a complete stone, I estimate that the highest offer on it would
> reach $60-70,000. Don't get me wrong - it could sell for more,
> but...it's wholesale.
> Yes, it might be "worth" more in a sense, but I believe that the
> general consensus here has always been that these rocks are "worth"
> what people were willing to pay for them. I haven't asked Sonny, but
> based on what I know of the market, I doubt that he's gotten an offer
> as high as 100k for it. He might well get a better offer, but that
> would make it one of the more costly meteorites to actually sell - in
> the past decade.
>
> So, no. I think it's safe to say that $700,000 is not close to a
> reasonable estimate.
> Even if you assume $1000/g for smaller pieces, you're not taking
> cutting losses into account, which would take it to at most $500k, or
> thereabouts, and it would take so long to sell that simply stating a
> price like that is rather deceptive.
>
> There's a reason that the asking price for the 420kg Fukang main mass
> is in the 2-3 million dollar range (about $5-6/g), as opposed to being
> $16.8 million. Fukang may be "worth" $40/g. That doesn't mean that a
> large piece is worth that much.
>
> And the same principle applies across the board - a single acre of
> land will run you more per acre than will an acre of land in a
> hundred-acre parcel. And if you buy ten cars from a dealer, they'll
> probably give you something of a discount, whereas if you buy only
> one...not so much.
>
> I appreciate the optimistic quote from the market's perspective,
> but...it's just not reasonable to say that the rock is worth that much
> when it wouldn't fetch that on the market.
>
> Jason
>
>
>
>
> On Wed, Feb 17, 2010 at 7:40 PM, <meteorhntr at aol.com> wrote:
>> Hi MikeG and List,
>>
>> In this episode, Sony's CM1 is one of only two found outside of
>> Antarctica. The other one, as I understand, sold out quickly at several
>> thousand dollars per gram. Sony has placed a value of $1,000 per gram thus
>> the estimation of his 699g rock at $700,000 is probably reasonable for a
>> US find.
>>
>> I was quoted as saying these ordinary chondrite pieces were probably worth
>> $1 per gram but I will probably list them on eBay for $5 per gram (for the
>> 2-10g size pieces) and see how they do.
>>
>> Steve Arnold
>>
>> Sent from my BlackBerry Smartphone provided by Alltel
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: "Galactic Stone & Ironworks" <meteoritemike at gmail.com>
>> Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2010 22:11:37
>> To: <Metorman46 at aol.com>
>> Cc: <meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com>
>> Subject: [meteorite-list] Meteorite Men - Where do the dollar values come
>> from?
>>
>> Hi Folks,
>>
>> Is it just me, or do the dollar values for some of the meteorites
>> shown on Meteorite Men seem a little inflated? This is not a
>> criticism, but just a straight question. As a collector and part-time
>> dealer, the prices given for some of these specimens seems a bit on
>> the optimistic side.
>>
>> >From a dealer's perspective, if the public thinks a meteorite is
>> worth more than it actually is, the dealer charge more for them.
>>
>> >From a hunter's perspective, if the public thinks a meteorite is worth
>> more than it actually is, they can have unrealistic expectations for
>> what their rocks are worth.
>>
>> Steve has spoken about this on the List previously, because landowners
>> will have unrealistic expectations of what their specimens are worth -
>> and this gives hunters fits who are trying to buy specimens or cut
>> deals with landowners.
>>
>> So, where exactly are these dollar values coming from? Who is setting
>> them and putting them on the screen during the final edit?
>>
>> Best regards and happy hunting,
>>
>> MikeG
>>
>>
>> On 2/17/10, Metorman46 at aol.com <Metorman46 at aol.com> wrote:
>>> Hello Michael;
>>>
>>> I highlighted your statement from a previous post because i think it says
>>> all that can simply be said about their great program.It energizes me to
>>> watch Geoff and Steve do the thing that most of the worlds meteorite
>>> collectors would like to be doing.But,we are too busy with our work- a-
>>> world lives
>>> to ever do much of that kind of activity.It sure is pleasant to sit in
>>> an
>>> easy chair,warm or cool and enjoy seeing it done while educating the
>>> world
>>> community about the joy of the hunt and even profitable sometimes.There
>>> probably will be a lot of new interest in meteorites and collecting
>>> them.(Get
>>> ready dealers and collectors that sell specimens).It"s a coming!
>>>
>>> Thanks to all for the great posts;Herman Archer IMCA # 2770
>>>______________________________________________
>>> Visit the Archives at
>>> http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html
>>> Meteorite-list mailing list
>>> Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com
>>> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>> Mike Gilmer
>> http://www.galactic-stone.com
>> http://www.facebook.com/galacticstone
>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>>______________________________________________
>> Visit the Archives at
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> ______________________________________________
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-- 
------------------------------------------------------------
Mike Gilmer
http://www.galactic-stone.com
http://www.facebook.com/galacticstone
------------------------------------------------------------

Received on Thu 18 Feb 2010 07:26:26 AM PST