[meteorite-list] Meteorite Law/Export and Quick Question about Sahara xxxxx finds

From: Jeff Grossman <jgrossman_at_meteoritecentral.com>
Date: Sun, 19 Dec 2010 14:16:07 -0500
Message-ID: <4D0E59F7.7000509_at_usgs.gov>

There is no map.

Jeff

On 12/19/2010 12:05 PM, Greg Catterton wrote:
> Is there a "map" that shows the areas of what is covered under NWA? If not, I think it would be useful to have one, not only for talking to people about meteorites but also for anyone who sells or collects NWA material.
> Being able to show where and what NWA is would go a long way.
>
> As for the laws - I am not sure I know enough to offer an answer. It is something I am currently researching however.
> > From what I have seen, Algeria seems like a place that is not export friendly (not too safe either!) and would require export permits to legally own, just as Canada, Australia, Argentina, Brazil and many other countries.
>
> Does anyone know more about this or have a site/page set up on meteorite laws and exporting? I think it would be a good resource to have available.
>
> Greg Catterton
> www.wanderingstarmeteorites.com
> IMCA member 4682
> On Ebay: http://stores.shop.ebay.com/wanderingstarmeteorites
> On Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/WanderingStarMeteorites
>
>
> --- On Sun, 12/19/10, Jeff Grossman<jgrossman at usgs.gov> wrote:
>
>> From: Jeff Grossman<jgrossman at usgs.gov>
>> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Quick Question about Sahara xxxxx finds
>> To: meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com
>> Date: Sunday, December 19, 2010, 11:52 AM
>> Parts of Algeria are included in the
>> definition of NWA.
>>
>> As for export laws, you tell me!
>>
>> Jeff
>>
>> On 12/19/2010 11:34 AM, Greg Catterton wrote:
>>> Thanks for the info Jeff. I have a couple
>> questions...
>>>> Algeria, Niger, and Libya were all possible
>> collection
>>>> areas, and these are not in the NWA area, which is
>> defined
>>>> as "Morocco and adjacent parts of the surrounding
>>>> countries."
>>> If this is the case, how do recent Lunars like NWA
>> 2996, 4483 and 5151 become NWA stones when they were found
>> in Algeria?
>>> Given export laws (however foolish they are) shouldnt
>> these require export permits to own like Canadian and
>> Argentina falls since Algeria does not allow export?
>>> Greg Catterton
>>> www.wanderingstarmeteorites.com
>>> IMCA member 4682
>>> On Ebay: http://stores.shop.ebay.com/wanderingstarmeteorites
>>> On Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/WanderingStarMeteorites
>>>
>>>
>>> --- On Sun, 12/19/10, Jeff Grossman<jgrossman at usgs.gov>
>> wrote:
>>>> From: Jeff Grossman<jgrossman at usgs.gov>
>>>> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Quick Question about
>> Sahara xxxxx finds
>>>> To: meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com
>>>> Date: Sunday, December 19, 2010, 7:44 AM
>>>> There are several issues and a
>>>> misconception here.
>>>>
>>>> Misconception: The Nomenclature Committee (NomCom)
>> does not
>>>> change the names of meteorites once they are
>> accepted,
>>>> except in extraordinary circumstances (e.g., the
>> Gao/Guenie
>>>> nomenclatural nightmare). To do so would
>> cause endless
>>>> confusion. All of the Nova meteorites were
>> named that
>>>> way when they were initially published in the
>> Bulletin.
>>>> The "Sahara" series, which were collected and
>> so-named by
>>>> the Labenne family, predates the "NWA" series by
>> several
>>>> years. In the late 1997, the Sahara
>> meteorites were
>>>> being sold under this name, several groups of
>> scientists
>>>> wanted to publish on them, and the NomCom had to
>> figure out
>>>> what to do about their names. The choices
>> were to
>>>> accept these names, convince the Labennes to
>> rename them, or
>>>> to rename them ourselves for the official
>>>> announcement. For several reasons, Sahara
>> was
>>>> accepted. First, the names were already
>> coming into
>>>> widespread use, and renaming them would cause a
>> mess.
>>>> Second, it was understood that the coordinates
>> would be
>>>> released, perhaps in five years, once the area was
>> hunted
>>>> out (this never happened, but I still hope it
>> will).
>>>> The vote to establish the NWA series came in 2000,
>> when it
>>>> became clear that the Saharan nomenclature problem
>> was
>>>> growing in magnitude. It seems possible
>> that, had the
>>>> Labenne meteorites appeared after this date,
>> NomCom would
>>>> have insisted that they all be called NWA.
>> But
>>>> probably not: we thought that Tunisia,
>> eastern
>>>> Algeria, Niger, and Libya were all possible
>> collection
>>>> areas, and these are not in the NWA area, which is
>> defined
>>>> as "Morocco and adjacent parts of the surrounding
>>>> countries."
>>>>
>>>> Given all of this, probably the ideal names for
>> the Labenne
>>>> meteorites would have been Sahara 001 - Sahara
>> xxx, but what
>>>> was done was done.
>>>>
>>>> Jeff
>>>>
>>>> On 12/18/2010 2:25 PM, Greg Catterton wrote:
>>>>> Many will provide false information or not any
>> at all
>>>> to keep the location secret. There is a discussion
>> elsewhere
>>>> currently about a finder lying about the location
>> to secure
>>>> the material available.
>>>>> Algeria has laws preventing the export of
>> meteorites,
>>>> yet there are new ones coming out everyday. Even
>> recent
>>>> Lunars from there are accepted and sold. All one
>> has to do
>>>> is simply say NWA.
>>>>> Berduc was the same way, many were transported
>> outside
>>>> the country and claimed to have been found
>> elsewhere.
>>>>> I have seen many others questioned about
>> locations and
>>>> even know of one person who has outright lied
>> about where a
>>>> stone was recovered to keep from paying the land
>> owner the
>>>> share agreed on and created a laughable story of
>> the find
>>>> that has been published with so many flaws, it
>> looks like a
>>>> scam ad on ebay. I bet some of you have a piece of
>> it in
>>>> your collection and dont even know the whole story
>> behind
>>>> it!
>>>>> I think it happens more then we would really
>> want to
>>>> know.
>>>>> Greg Catterton
>>>>> www.wanderingstarmeteorites.com
>>>>> IMCA member 4682
>>>>> On Ebay: http://stores.shop.ebay.com/wanderingstarmeteorites
>>>>> On Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/WanderingStarMeteorites
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --- On Sat, 12/18/10, Michael Gilmer<meteoritemike at gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>>> From: Michael Gilmer<meteoritemike at gmail.com>
>>>>>> Subject: [meteorite-list] Quick Question
>> about
>>>> Sahara xxxxx finds
>>>>>> To: meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com
>>>>>> Date: Saturday, December 18, 2010, 1:51
>> PM
>>>>>> Hi Listees,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I have a quick question for the group and
>> maybe
>>>> someone
>>>>>> here can shed
>>>>>> some light on this subject....
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Meteorites that do not have find
>> coordinates or
>>>> have
>>>>>> falsified find
>>>>>> coordinates are typically given the
>> "Nova"
>>>> designation by
>>>>>> NonCom or if
>>>>>> they are from Northwest Africa, they are
>> given the
>>>> "NWA"
>>>>>> designation.
>>>>>> In a handful of cases, a named meteorite
>> was later
>>>> changed
>>>>>> to a "Nova"
>>>>>> because it was discovered that the find
>>>> coordinates were
>>>>>> incorrect or
>>>>>> dubious.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> So, why after all of these years does the
>> Sahara
>>>> xxxxx
>>>>>> finds (mostly
>>>>>> Labenne finds) are not referred to as
>> "NWA" or
>>>>>> "Nova"? It is
>>>>>> well-known that the find coordinates on
>> the many
>>>> of these
>>>>>> Labenne
>>>>>> Sahara finds are falsified, which has hurt
>> science
>>>> and the
>>>>>> provenance
>>>>>> of the specimens. To this day, over
>> a decade
>>>> later,
>>>>>> the true find
>>>>>> coordinates of these specimens have not
>> been
>>>> revealed and
>>>>>> probably
>>>>>> will never be revealed.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Can someone explain the double-standard at
>> work
>>>> here? Is it because
>>>>>> of the pioneering work and
>> otherwise-respectable
>>>> work that
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> Labennes have done - despite the
>> falsification of
>>>> the find
>>>>>> locations?
>>>>>> Why do these Sahara finds get special
>> treatment,
>>>> while
>>>>>> other finds
>>>>>> with dubious locations are lumped under
>> "NWA" or
>>>> "Nova" ?
>>>>>> I realize the NWA designation did not
>> exist when
>>>> the Sahara
>>>>>> finds were
>>>>>> accepted by NonCom, but shouldn't they now
>> receive
>>>> the
>>>>>> Nova
>>>>>> designation? In fact, the NWA
>> designation
>>>> was
>>>>>> created, in part, due
>>>>>> to the confusion created by the Sahara
>>>> finds. So why
>>>>>> do they still
>>>>>> get a special place in nomenclature after
>> all of
>>>> this
>>>>>> time?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Best regards,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> MikeG
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>> Mike Gilmer - Galactic
>> Stone& Ironworks
>>>> Meteorites
>>>>>> Website - http://www.galactic-stone.com
>>>>>> Facebook - http://www.facebook.com/galacticstone
>>>>>> News Feed - http://www.galactic-stone.com/rss/126516
>>>>>> Twitter - http://twitter.com/galacticstone
>>>>>> Meteorite Top List - http://meteorite.gotop100.com
>>>>>> EOM - http://www.encyclopedia-of-meteorites.com/collection.aspx?id=1564
>>>>>>
>> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
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Received on Sun 19 Dec 2010 02:16:07 PM PST