[meteorite-list] Quick Question about Sahara xxxxx finds

From: Jeff Grossman <jgrossman_at_meteoritecentral.com>
Date: Sun, 19 Dec 2010 11:52:33 -0500
Message-ID: <4D0E3851.5000705_at_usgs.gov>

Parts of Algeria are included in the definition of NWA.

As for export laws, you tell me!

Jeff

On 12/19/2010 11:34 AM, Greg Catterton wrote:
> Thanks for the info Jeff. I have a couple questions...
>
>> Algeria, Niger, and Libya were all possible collection
>> areas, and these are not in the NWA area, which is defined
>> as "Morocco and adjacent parts of the surrounding
>> countries."
> If this is the case, how do recent Lunars like NWA 2996, 4483 and 5151 become NWA stones when they were found in Algeria?
> Given export laws (however foolish they are) shouldnt these require export permits to own like Canadian and Argentina falls since Algeria does not allow export?
>
> Greg Catterton
> www.wanderingstarmeteorites.com
> IMCA member 4682
> On Ebay: http://stores.shop.ebay.com/wanderingstarmeteorites
> On Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/WanderingStarMeteorites
>
>
> --- On Sun, 12/19/10, Jeff Grossman<jgrossman at usgs.gov> wrote:
>
>> From: Jeff Grossman<jgrossman at usgs.gov>
>> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Quick Question about Sahara xxxxx finds
>> To: meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com
>> Date: Sunday, December 19, 2010, 7:44 AM
>> There are several issues and a
>> misconception here.
>>
>> Misconception: The Nomenclature Committee (NomCom) does not
>> change the names of meteorites once they are accepted,
>> except in extraordinary circumstances (e.g., the Gao/Guenie
>> nomenclatural nightmare). To do so would cause endless
>> confusion. All of the Nova meteorites were named that
>> way when they were initially published in the Bulletin.
>>
>> The "Sahara" series, which were collected and so-named by
>> the Labenne family, predates the "NWA" series by several
>> years. In the late 1997, the Sahara meteorites were
>> being sold under this name, several groups of scientists
>> wanted to publish on them, and the NomCom had to figure out
>> what to do about their names. The choices were to
>> accept these names, convince the Labennes to rename them, or
>> to rename them ourselves for the official
>> announcement. For several reasons, Sahara was
>> accepted. First, the names were already coming into
>> widespread use, and renaming them would cause a mess.
>> Second, it was understood that the coordinates would be
>> released, perhaps in five years, once the area was hunted
>> out (this never happened, but I still hope it will).
>>
>> The vote to establish the NWA series came in 2000, when it
>> became clear that the Saharan nomenclature problem was
>> growing in magnitude. It seems possible that, had the
>> Labenne meteorites appeared after this date, NomCom would
>> have insisted that they all be called NWA. But
>> probably not: we thought that Tunisia, eastern
>> Algeria, Niger, and Libya were all possible collection
>> areas, and these are not in the NWA area, which is defined
>> as "Morocco and adjacent parts of the surrounding
>> countries."
>>
>> Given all of this, probably the ideal names for the Labenne
>> meteorites would have been Sahara 001 - Sahara xxx, but what
>> was done was done.
>>
>> Jeff
>>
>> On 12/18/2010 2:25 PM, Greg Catterton wrote:
>>> Many will provide false information or not any at all
>> to keep the location secret. There is a discussion elsewhere
>> currently about a finder lying about the location to secure
>> the material available.
>>> Algeria has laws preventing the export of meteorites,
>> yet there are new ones coming out everyday. Even recent
>> Lunars from there are accepted and sold. All one has to do
>> is simply say NWA.
>>> Berduc was the same way, many were transported outside
>> the country and claimed to have been found elsewhere.
>>> I have seen many others questioned about locations and
>> even know of one person who has outright lied about where a
>> stone was recovered to keep from paying the land owner the
>> share agreed on and created a laughable story of the find
>> that has been published with so many flaws, it looks like a
>> scam ad on ebay. I bet some of you have a piece of it in
>> your collection and dont even know the whole story behind
>> it!
>>> I think it happens more then we would really want to
>> know.
>>> Greg Catterton
>>> www.wanderingstarmeteorites.com
>>> IMCA member 4682
>>> On Ebay: http://stores.shop.ebay.com/wanderingstarmeteorites
>>> On Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/WanderingStarMeteorites
>>>
>>>
>>> --- On Sat, 12/18/10, Michael Gilmer<meteoritemike at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>>> From: Michael Gilmer<meteoritemike at gmail.com>
>>>> Subject: [meteorite-list] Quick Question about
>> Sahara xxxxx finds
>>>> To: meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com
>>>> Date: Saturday, December 18, 2010, 1:51 PM
>>>> Hi Listees,
>>>>
>>>> I have a quick question for the group and maybe
>> someone
>>>> here can shed
>>>> some light on this subject....
>>>>
>>>> Meteorites that do not have find coordinates or
>> have
>>>> falsified find
>>>> coordinates are typically given the "Nova"
>> designation by
>>>> NonCom or if
>>>> they are from Northwest Africa, they are given the
>> "NWA"
>>>> designation.
>>>> In a handful of cases, a named meteorite was later
>> changed
>>>> to a "Nova"
>>>> because it was discovered that the find
>> coordinates were
>>>> incorrect or
>>>> dubious.
>>>>
>>>> So, why after all of these years does the Sahara
>> xxxxx
>>>> finds (mostly
>>>> Labenne finds) are not referred to as "NWA" or
>>>> "Nova"? It is
>>>> well-known that the find coordinates on the many
>> of these
>>>> Labenne
>>>> Sahara finds are falsified, which has hurt science
>> and the
>>>> provenance
>>>> of the specimens. To this day, over a decade
>> later,
>>>> the true find
>>>> coordinates of these specimens have not been
>> revealed and
>>>> probably
>>>> will never be revealed.
>>>>
>>>> Can someone explain the double-standard at work
>> here? Is it because
>>>> of the pioneering work and otherwise-respectable
>> work that
>>>> the
>>>> Labennes have done - despite the falsification of
>> the find
>>>> locations?
>>>> Why do these Sahara finds get special treatment,
>> while
>>>> other finds
>>>> with dubious locations are lumped under "NWA" or
>> "Nova" ?
>>>> I realize the NWA designation did not exist when
>> the Sahara
>>>> finds were
>>>> accepted by NonCom, but shouldn't they now receive
>> the
>>>> Nova
>>>> designation? In fact, the NWA designation
>> was
>>>> created, in part, due
>>>> to the confusion created by the Sahara
>> finds. So why
>>>> do they still
>>>> get a special place in nomenclature after all of
>> this
>>>> time?
>>>>
>>>> Best regards,
>>>>
>>>> MikeG
>>>>
>>>>
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> Mike Gilmer - Galactic Stone& Ironworks
>> Meteorites
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Received on Sun 19 Dec 2010 11:52:33 AM PST