[meteorite-list] Newcomers and the Meteorite world

From: Martin Altmann <altmann_at_meteoritecentral.com>
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2010 15:56:22 +0200
Message-ID: <003501cb3d4a$cfae4510$6f0acf30$_at_de>

Hi Greg, Al, Barry...

>I just was surprised to find that other dealers, and a fair amount of them
dont have personal collections

Hmm Greg, how would you quantify that percentage of dealers, who don't have
an own meteorite collection?
My own impression is, that those, who haven't any are quite exceptions and a
very small minority.

>if you have 1 meteorite you are a collecter. If you have 2 meteorites you
are a dealer.

It simply depends on, and this question was posed often here on the list,
how you define "dealer".
Maybe a more formal definition, abstracting away from personal intents and
motivations, could be more exact?
A dealer is someone, who sells regularly meteorites and does it in form of a
registered business.
And the other part of the meteorite "market" could be called "amateurs" in
the original and positive meaning of this word. "Amare" = to love something.
(which doesn't mean in reverse, that the "dealers" in this definition
wouldn't love meteorites).

>like in the good old days.

I fear I can't fully agree with Al, those mythic days were in my remembrance
not so good and golden like our days.
The choice a meteorite collector had was compared to today extremely
limited.
So few meteorites. So few dealers, that today some would speak of an
oligopoly.
The communication - wouldn't say, that it was more personal than today,
where emails and words can be sent and received in unlimited quantities and
almost with the speed of light.
Without internet there weren't any forums or lists, where collectors could
exchange their information and discuss. Meteorite people were much more far
away from novelties, new finds, results from the current research. And
everything was soooooooooooooooo slow in these days.

The collector inevitably had to be an autodidact, cultivating his passions
from the very few books available and the information from the few other
meteorite persons, he knew (hoping that the kind of information wasn't
biased by the intention of his counterpart to foist a meteorite upon to
him).

No possibilities existed to get an overview of the pieces currently
available on the international market
and especially almost no possibilities existed to compare and to challenge
prices.

It was the time of letter on papers and of phone calls. If you were lucky,
you got a paper photo or a hand drawing of the specimen, you were interested
in - but most specimens you were buying blindly.
The collector simply had to swallow, what the dealer dished up.

The only possibility, to do that, what now we all are doing in an instant or
in seconds, was to travel to the largest mineral shows, where some of the
handful of meteorite dealers then took part in.

Today some veterans glorify these old days, because there are many more
meteorites, many more offerers and such semi-anonymous platforms like ebay.
But if they would be willing to spent only a fraction of the time and
arduousness, they expended in the old days, they rhapsodize, they would see,
that the meteorite scene of today is still very manageable.
The number of new finds and the quantities of the desert finds, the other
new finds, the new falls and the additional late finds of historic
meteorites - the number of the collectibles! - is still very limited.
Especially compared to quite all other fields of collecting.

So is the number of offerers too.

We have more than 300 cities on the globe with more than 1 million
inhabitants.
In the very most of them, you won't find any meteorite dealer.

Well and today... if I would have told to Al 20 years ago: Al, I give you a
lunar at 800$ a gram, a howardite at 10$ a gram, a CK at 8$ and an LL at 50
cents and an acapulcoite at 50$ and those Texas, Kansas ect. OC-stinkers
from another country at 5cents a gram..
and Al, have you heard about so called R-chondrites, brachinites, CBs, CHs,
CM1, KREEP and so on,

then he probably would - caring as he is - had instantaneously called the
emergency doctor :-)


I think, what causes many veterans to be so sentimental is, that the "The
journey is the reward"-notion of meteorite collecting is partially lost, as
in former times you had to do so endlessly more to get a specimen into your
collection.
Partially - because still to get the very best stuff and the most
extraordinary pieces in a collector still today can't be passive. And as
irritating arbitrarily the new wealth of rare types may occur to the
veteran, one still doesn't get all, what one wants to have.

And I wouldn't say, that the personal contact between seller and collector
has lost that much quality,
still the relation is based on trust and reputation (and even still today
often on mutual respect) - at least in certain segments of the market, which
exceeds the occasional curio-trade of little shooting stars - and also
partially on ebay, as with the maturing of the beginning collectors, they
soon develop their preferences regarding dealers, service and reliability.
I'd say, quite only the methods of communication have changed, it's now more
immediate.

Another advantage of the internet is, due to the visibility and the more
direct competition, the sellers are today under an endlessly higher pressure
regarding the prices, compared to the former days.
That's why most of da stuff is so much cheaper today than then.

But lost is maybe the elitist feeling, to have spent all one's fortuned for
a thumbnail-sized howardite, whereof not many other collectors have a piece
in the collection.
Nevertheless, such feelings a collector can still generate for himself -
that what happened is, that the end of the high-end, seen the material, has
moved to a higher end.
Many of that, what was then exclusive, isn't that exclusive today, but other
material supervened, which is exactly as exclusive today, like the not so
exclusive material of today was in past.
(Or so - eeek what a sentence...)

All in all I wouldn't wish back the old days.



Finally some words about IMCA.
I don't fully understand the retentions, expressed here.

You know what? When I and Stefan take our stall in Munich, we have to pay a
mandatory fee, like every person, dealer or collector, taking part in this
second largest mineral show of da World,
for the European association of minerals and fossils dealers.
A club, where we aren't members, where we have zero right to say in a matter
and which does nothing for us or for meteorites.
And then we're standing there, between the other tables, where always here
and there much faked stuff is offered or junk, where one has no idea, what
it could have to do with minerals.

In regular intervals here on the meteorite list, new collectors express
their fears and distrusts, that they could be ripped off in acquiring
meteorites. In buying fakes, in acquiring not properly analyzed meteorites,
in falling for shady persons ect.

...although one has really have to have a lot of bad luck, to get on such,
cause meteorite collecting is quite the safest field of collecting of all.

So there is a need to supply a higher standard of safety for all,
and especially clear that need became, when years ago ebay became a place,
where meteorites were offered
and often as that place, where not experienced beginners come for the first
time in contact with meteorites.
Jon and Jane Dow were writing on their garden finds "meteorites", conspiracy
theorists stuffed the ebay with their "lunars", "martians" ect., slags, all
types of rocks, as long as they had enough holes were claimed to be
meteorites, tektites came from Moon or other galaxies, the Tibetans were
told to sit since 1000nds of years on mountains of iron meteorites, to
tinker cheesy decoration items from it, the whole load of absolutely
worthless pseudos from Far-East hit ebay, and in consequence those were
offered also from esoterics and mineral trade as genuine meteorites.

This was and is the objective of IMCA, to improve safety,
which is not only btw. but certainly the best way to promote meteorite
collecting.

And check it. Here on the list, as well as in the German forum, rather daily
than weekly alerts are given of tries to sell fakes.
I can't check the archives, though I can't remember a case, where such a
fraud was tried by an IMCA-member.
Same if you look into ebay, how many of the identifiable meteowrongs offered
there, are offered by IMCA-members?
None.

Today one can recommend to a person with absolute no knowledge about
meteorites and the meteorite scene,
without to have any remorse, to look for the IMCA-logo, if he or she wants
to acquire a genuine meteorite,
because the risk to get screwed is really minimal.

And that is a huge success.
That IMCA is sometimes and still perceived as a trade's organization - stems
maybe from the fact, that dealers are certainly more present on web than
collectors - and that offerers - collectors or professionals - joined
fastest, because they saw the chances such an organization could offer and
because they suffered most and immediately from the worsening of the whole
meteorite scene in the public perception by these massive occurrence of
fakes and doubtful offers.
And they could easily join, because the Code of Ethics of IMCA, they had to
agree, was anyway for most of them the standard they used to provide.

Hence nobody was urged to join. That so many joined, proves the success of
IMCA regarding that aim.
Neither IMCA was ever promoting, that only their members are the good guys
and all non-members the bad ones.

If you study the member list, you will find, that it isn't a dealers
associations - there you'll find collectors, hunters, dealers, scientists -
and names you haven't heard yet from.

Same applies to the board of directors.
9 people preside IMCA - there you have also hunters, sole collectors,
dealers - all with different backgrounds and focuses. It's relatively
nonsensical to suppose that these are enforcing particular or own interests,
cause to a certain degree the board reflects the plurality of the meteoritic
world,
but first and foremost, that board isn't self-preserving but the members are
elected democratically, in regular relatively short intervals and every
member can run for the board.

And one has to see, what IMCA offers.
Not only the members, really EVERYONE can address to IMCA, when he sees some
troubles, has doubts, or feels screwed in a transaction with a member and he
will get fast help.
What for possibilities do you have else, if you got screwed? I mean, who
would pay, spend nerves and time and bother himself with drawing on a
lawyer, if the 20$ or 50$ piece from ebay turned out to be a fake?
And have you ever thought, how laborious and almost impossible it is to sue
a person in another country?
Meteorites is an extremely internationalized affair.

And that help is for everyone: FREE.

In fact IMCA offers more - good piece of information, EoM ect.
And in fact, I think I can say that, the board receives only very sparsely
requests or complaints about transactions, but much more requests for
information and assistance in meteoritic questions.

And probably, after the first goal - to improve the standard and safety - is
to that good degree accomplished,
IMCA - which is still a young organization - will develop more in the
direction of information, education and public outreach.

Note also, that more and more scientists join, so that IMCA can develop to
an interface between collectorship and science,
note also, that IMCA tries more and more to integrate Morocco - certainly a
huge improvement for everyone.
And so on.

And now see, how that all must be achieved. IMCA already offers a more
active and better service than many other governing bodies or umbrella
associations do, with huge budgets, asking costs for services, mandatory
memberships for whole branches, high fees, mandatory fees, regular employees
etc.
Dunno, if I go here in Europe into a supermarket, meanwhile on each and
every product shine forth several seals and labels - each of them badly and
expensively paid by the producer - and in the end by the consumer. Safety
seems to have its price in normal life.

And with IMCA we're talking about 20$ a year. A small Gold Basin, a tiny
Sikhote.
Make your math. 340 members * 20$/year - that's the budget, IMCA has to cope
with to provide that service.
I guess, that's not that much. Especially not in relation to that, what was
already achieved.

Don't know, what costs the annual fee of MetSoc? 110$. What do you get as
private meteorite person for that?
The quarterly journal (where many articles for the normal collectors are too
difficult to read) and big plus, the maintainance of the Meteoritical
Bulletin Database. And else, especially seen what happens or better to say
seems not to happen there, seen what's going on with these debates about
introducing laws and the laws introduced, one doesn't get directly the
impression, that MetSoc would care for the very basic needs of private
collecting, hunting and the general meteoritic exchange.
But nobody would discuss here on the list, about the fees there - (which
isn't necessary, cause they are a matter of course).

In fact IMCA works only, because all that work there voluntarily.
All members can play a part in and help.

Indeed I'd wish, that many more would do so.


Best!
Martin

Disclaimer: My private thoughts only.








  
Received on Mon 16 Aug 2010 09:56:22 AM PDT