[meteorite-list] Bugs In Space!

From: Meteorites USA <eric_at_meteoritecentral.com>
Date: Thu, 17 Sep 2009 12:04:53 -0700
Message-ID: <4AB28855.8000600_at_meteoritesusa.com>

Hi Carl, List,

In response...
> Eric, all,
> It seems to me a lot of people believe in the Big Bang theory. If you are among them then you must believe that everything on this planet did in fact come from space. Correct?
No... Technically I do believe there was some sort of starting point,
whether that is the Big Bang, well the jury is out on that one, though I
am open to it. Everything on Earth did NOT come from the Big Bang and
since the Big Bang is a theory you would have to first believe in that
to base your statement on that.
> I mean there was this huge explosion if you will, that when the dust settled formed our wonderful solar system. So if everything on Earth came from this Big Bang then why is there all of this debate about life? Do some of us think that everything came from space except the dirt?
No... Again, I do not believe life came from the Big Bang. This would
imply that life existed "before" the BB. I believe life formed billions
of years after the beginning whenever that was. Life cannot
spontaneously appear that we know of. I know some will argue that point.
But life doesn't come from a singularity.
> No, I think many believe that everything came from the Big Bang and everything means everything. Life fits neatly into the category of everything. Doesn't it??
No... Life is not everything, it is in fact a product of everything, and
everything doesn't exist only because of the BB.
> Therefore life also came from the Big Bang. Seems logical to me!
>
Again. Life is a product of and not directly from the BB. Life is an
effective sum of all energy and matter over time. Galaxies and systems
and planets are in fact vessels of life.
> Taking it one step further. If life came to Earth Via the Big Bang then wouldn't some of this life stuff have been launched to other planets as well. Perhaps even launched to other solar systems?
ALL life that is on Earth today did not COME to Earth... Original
Earth-life most probably formed on Earth. But that doesn't mean all life
that is on Earth today is from Earth. Meaning that it's possible that
SOME life came from other places. Your assumption is incomplete.

How life got here is the debate. Life did not spontaneously appear did
it? Just like a cake needs a recipe, so too does life. This does not
rule out a higher power, though some feel it does. If you can bake a
cake by combining the right amount of chemical ingredients, at the
perfect temperature, for the perfect amount of time you'll have cake.
Technically this means we're cake? Hope that doesn't mean we're
ultimately going to become food for a more powerful race of alien. ;)
> If so then we just need to find the planet that welcomes this life stuff. I think Mar's is too cold. The moon seems like it should be okay but it lacks atmosphere and maybe a few other things.
>
Your moon argument lacks strength because even though the moon lacks
atmosphere, if you read my previous post you'd know that the Apollo 12
mission bought back life from the moon. Thought that life was placed
there 3 years earlier it stowed aboard a camera. The point is it
survived for 3 years in space. What's to say there's not life there now,
buried deep inside a rock, a meteorite that crashed into the moons
surface millions of years ago?
> So, based on the Big Bang spewing life across space , life must have landed somewhere else. Either that or it is still in route and will land eventually on some planet that likes it as much as we do.
>
The BB did not spew life. Life formed afterward.
> Or maybe God created life?
>
Maybe... Maybe not...


Regards,
Eric



>
> ---- Meteorites USA <eric at meteoritesusa.com> wrote:
>
>> Hello everyone,
>>
>> Again I feel compelled to respond to such Earth centered thinking. We
>> are NOT the center of everything. Our planet is merely a dot in billions
>> of trillions of other dots in this universe.
>>
>> "...Sorry but imho panspermia is nothing more than religion by the back
>> door..."
>>
>> ok... Not really.
>>
>> "...Some people just cannot accept that life doesn't automatically have
>> to have come from outer space..."
>>
>> Some people cannot except that life COULD come from out there.
>>
>> "...where is the evidence to show that life cannot possibly start on
>> Earth?..."
>>
>> There is lots of evidence to shows life could start here. But that does
>> not mean ALL life is from here. This "Earth centered" idea is flawed in
>> every way.
>>
>> "...It has to start somewhere, and what better place than right here,
>> where the conditions are warm/wet/cold/ideal?..."
>>
>> Again, Earth centered and ultimately wrong. This is not to say that life
>> that is present today on this planet could not have started on this
>> planet. Just because someone says that meteorites might have seeded
>> Earth, does not mean that ALL life was seeded from elsewhere. It's
>> flawed thinking because it leaves out the fact that SOME life could have
>> come from elsewhere. Just because someone says that rocks from space
>> could have brought life to our planet does not mean it is all
>> encompassing or empirical at all because there is evidence.
>>
>> I believe the Panspermia theory may be flawed (or peoples understanding
>> of Panspermia anyway) if they state that all life came from elsewhere
>> simply because if all life came from elsewhere then where did
>> "elsewhere" get the life to begin with?
>>
>> It had to come into existence from somewhere. If you don't believe in
>> evolution, then you believe in God, if you believe in God you most
>> likely don't believe in evolution. But I ask you why you can't believe
>> in both? (rhetorical, please do not answer this as it's NOT related to
>> meteorites ;)) This is NOT the topic I want to get into so I will
>> continue on...
>>
>> So you believe the Earth is the Goldilocks planet. Given that you most
>> likely also believe there is a good chance that there is another system
>> out there with a star similar to our Sun and quite possibly another
>> planet similar to ours that lies within what science calls the habitable
>> zone. Or is that too big of a stretch?
>>
>> Let's just say for the sake of argument there is another planet out
>> there nearby (relative to our system) that is in this zone and that
>> there is life on that planet. One can safely assume that large
>> asteroidal and cometary debris has at some time in the past slammed into
>> that planet. Perhaps even while life existed on it, thereby ejecting
>> billions of tons of debris into space over time. Some of that debris
>> would no doubt carry some form of microbial life that lives deep inside
>> the soil and rock. (perhaps even insects) Protected from the harshness
>> of the vacuum and cold of space.
>>
>> Now we know that if there's a Goldilocks planet that there are most
>> likely other planets in that system as well, perhaps more, perhaps less
>> than our system, but our knowledge of solar system formation is one that
>> allows us to make an educated guess. The point is most of the debris
>> would be sucked into the orbits and eventually the atmospheres of other
>> planetary and larger bodies in that system. But. Not all of it would be.
>> Would it? Some of it would escape. Eventually...
>>
>> Let's also say for sake of argument the Gliese 581 star system is home
>> to our habitable planet. This system is 20 light years away. In other
>> words it takes light 20 years to travel to Earth. (speed of light is
>> 186,000 miles per second). A light year is 5,865,696,000,000 miles in
>> distance. Remember that number...
>>
>> The question now is, how fast will the debris that is able to escape the
>> system be traveling? Well, I wasn't sure and did a little digging and
>> found this page
>> http://www.madsci.org/posts/archives/2001-03/985224290.As.r.html which
>> explains the speed of an orbiting asteroid to be at 47000 mph. Since I
>> wanted to verify, I check around and found this too:
>> http://www.spaceref.com/news/viewpr.html?pid=14258 which puts the speed
>> of an orbiting asteroid at 67,000 mph. A difference of 20,000 mph. A BIG
>> difference!
>>
>> Still not convinced of the accuracy of the speed, I wanted to know a
>> more exact number I could apply to the debris to calculate the time it
>> would take for it to reach Earth. Then I found this:
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orbital_speed
>>
>> OK, I'm not a mathematician so those formulas and calculations are not
>> something I can use just yet. How fast does debris travel out of the
>> atmosphere, and how fast does it travel through the system in it's
>> orbit? Will it speed up? A few more searches and yes, it does speed up.
>> If the Voyager space probes speed up over time so too should the ejecta
>> from the planet. http://hypertextbook.com/facts/1997/PatricePean.shtml
>>
>> Speed of Voyager: 17.374 km/s = 38,864.5 mile/hour (mph)
>> Orbital Speed of Apophis: 30.728 km/s = 68,736.5 mile/hour (mph)
>>
>> A number I could work with is a happy medium between the fastest orbital
>> speed of an asteroid, and the fastest speed of the Voyager spacecrafts.
>>
>> 38,864.5 + 68,736.5 = 107,601 MPH / 2 = 53,800.5 MPH average
>>
>> If the distance of 1 light year is 5,865,696,000,000 miles and light
>> traveling from Gliese 581 takes 20 years to reach us then that star
>> system is 117,313,920,000,000 miles away.
>>
>> It would take a piece if debris traveling at 53,800.5 MPH approximately
>> 2,180,535,868 hours to make the trip. There are 8760 hours in a Julian
>> year. Divide that into our total travel time and that gives you 248,919
>> years. (someone please check my math. I'm pretty sure this is right)
>>
>> So to travel from Gliese 581 to Earth the debris would take about a
>> quarter million years to reach Earth. Considering the Earth is 4.6
>> Billion years old, the 250K year interval is nothing in astronomical time.
>>
>> Scientists today believe that extremophiles are very capable of living
>> in a dormant state for millions of years. If the pieces of debris that
>> come from a habitable planet in the Gliese 581 system would that life
>> then be revived once it impacts our planet in the form of a meteorite?
>>
>> I ask anyone, scientist or not to give me a good valid argument against
>> this theory other than the lack of probability that Gliese 581 is a life
>> bearing system. The point is it doesn't have to be our nearest solar
>> system neighbor. It could be any solar system that has existed within
>> the the 4.6 billion years the Earth has been here that is within that
>> space time range.
>>
>> There are over 100 billion stars in our Milky Way alone. Do you really
>> believe that NONE of them support life but ours?
>>
>> If I'm totally wrong or mistaken in my logic or math or anything else
>> please by all means tell me...
>>
>> Regards,
>> Eric Wichman
>> www.meteoritesusa.com
>> www.meteoriteblog.com
>> www.spacifieds.com
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Mark Ford wrote:
>>
>>> There is much documented evidence of microbes in the upper atmosphere
>>> region, I think the debatable bit though is the suggestion that life
>>> must have come from somewhere other than from Earth, - This is simply
>>> not the case. I have seen no evidence to suggest anything other than
>>> that every single life form we have ever found originated right here on
>>> earth.
>>>
>>> Some people just cannot accept that life doesn't automatically have to
>>> have come from outer space, they are entitled to hold that view, but
>>> where is the evidence to show that life cannot possibly start on Earth?
>>> It has to start somewhere, and what better place than right here, where
>>> the conditions are warm/wet/cold/ideal?
>>>
>>> Sorry but imho panspermia is nothing more than religion by the back
>>> door..
>>>
>>> Transfer of life from planet to planet via meteorites is more
>>> interesting, though even here we have the dilemma that just because
>>> highly evolved extreemophiles can potentially survive under controlled
>>> test conditions doesn't automatically mean they actually have, there are
>>> many other complex variables to consider, many of which are still poorly
>>> understood.
>>>
>>>
>>> Mark
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com
>>> [mailto:meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com] On Behalf Of Becky
>>> and Kirk
>>> Sent: 17 September 2009 01:13
>>> To: meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com
>>> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Bugs In Space!
>>>
>>> Phil,
>>> How is this "junk" science????
>>> Kirk...........
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "JoshuaTreeMuseum" <joshuatreemuseum at embarqmail.com>
>>> To: <meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com>
>>> Sent: Wednesday, September 16, 2009 10:11 AM
>>> Subject: [meteorite-list] Bugs In Space!
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> G'day, Konnichiwa, Aloha, Top 'o the morning to ya!:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Microbes from outer space living in the upper atmosphere and bacteria
>>>> living for millions of years! If I only had more time to read junk
>>>> science!
>>>>
>>>> Phil Whitmer
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Hi listees,
>>>>
>>>> Some interesting reading...
>>>>
>>>> "...To test if meteorites might protect bacteria on their journey
>>>> through space, Horneck and her colleagues mixed samples of 50 million
>>>> spores with particles of clay, red sandstone, Martian meteorite, or
>>>> simulated Martian soil and made small lumps a centimeter in diameter.
>>>> Between 10,000 and 100,000 spores of the original 50 million survived
>>>> and when mixed with red sandstone, nearly all survived, suggesting
>>>>
>>>>
>>> that
>>>
>>>
>>>> even meteorites a centimeter in diameter can carry life from one
>>>>
>>>>
>>> planet
>>>
>>>
>>>> to another, if they completed the journey within a few years. In a
>>>>
>>>>
>>> rock
>>>
>>>
>>>> a meter across, bacteria could probably survive for millions of
>>>>
>>>>
>>> years...."
>>>
>>>
>>>> Still don't believe?
>>>> ______________________________________________
>>>> http://www.meteoritecentral.com
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>>>> Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com
>>>> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
>>>>
>>>>
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>
Received on Thu 17 Sep 2009 03:04:53 PM PDT