[meteorite-list] NWA planetaries and Moroccans

From: Martin Altmann <altmann_at_meteoritecentral.com>
Date: Tue, 19 May 2009 00:45:48 +0200
Message-ID: <014901c9d80a$642d9030$177f2a59_at_name86d88d87e2>

Hi Carl,

IMCA has indeed no influence on pricing.
And I think, that wouldn't be desirable at all, would it?
As most adhere to the ideal of the interplay of forces, while monopolism
rarely has advantages for its victims...

Hmm sometimes I have the feeling, that a few (still) misunderstand the role
of IMCA.

IMCA isn't the Vatican of meteoritics, which publishes a catechism and
pitilessly prosecutes any breach of anyone on Earth, who is able to form the
word "meteorite" with his lips,
Neither to stay at religious metaphors is it the Guardian Council nor
invented IMCA a meteoritic sharia.

It is certainly somewhat flattering if someones think that IMCA is so
mighty,
but IMCA is somewhat else.

An association of like-mined people, who first and foremost have a common
aim:
Authenticity, authenticity and authenticity.
All members, who join, obligate themselves, that the stones and irons they
sell, swap, trade, publish ect. are exactly that, what they claim, that they
are.
(....and that they adhere to a proper business conduct - which for most of
them was anyway before already a matter of course.)

It is not the job of the IMCA to dictate to a fancy restaurant in Oslo, that
the burger there on the menu might be somewhat expensive with 20$, cause the
same burger costs at a takeaway in Alabama 99 cents.
Important is, that the ingredients are proper.

Neither is IMCA responsible for people selling or consuming their burgers
topped with strawberry jelly - as long as the beef is the beef - cause that
is a question of individual taste.

That is the most important objective, IMCA has imposed on itself.

Hmm, I read Adam's post different.
Cause Greg showed that material first, without naming it,
he asked what it is and whether the provenience is alright,
because that is an important issue, crucial also for the collector.

Greg supplied the provenience, which was confirmed from another side.
Case closed, Ted hasn't to analyze or to give a new number, as it is a part
of an already known and classified stone.

All dealt correct.
No misinformation.

(no violation of IMCA-rules. Note, that Greg hadn't made any incorrect
statements, like e.g. I sell that Moon cheaper than anyone before, that one
could rant, if one would be very finicky, cause that material was offered in
public to the list 2 years or so ago at 500$ a gram).


On price debates I won't say a word.
Only that some forget, that dealers, who regularly bring out new material on
a fast pace, certainly have different cost-structures and risks, than
sellers, who here and there sell minor amounts of known material for fun or
to refinance their collection. Professional dealers btw. are sometimes more
expensive, sometimes cheaper, sometimes they ask the same... I can't follow
intellectually that debate.
Who would have the idea, to go to his butcher or baker to insult him, that
his food is more expensive than at the big discounter? Who, who has some
scissors at home, would dare to go to the barber around the corner to
publically insult him?
For me that is really weird.

And about morality... what shall we discuss about that, with people, who
pride themselves, that they bought their preferred dealer their beloved
UNWAs at 25$/kg.
Deduct from that sum the transportation costs from Morocco, the sales &
income taxes, the running business costs the dealer has to pay,
and then think, what he can pay to his Moroccan suppliers for a price for
that stuff - often middlemen by theirselves - and how much of the price
finally will reach those, who drudge to make it possible, that we get the
stuff at such prices at all in our collections - stuff whereof a kilogram is
as rare as a kilogram of brilliants (still talking from UNWA) - in fact in
Sahara even rarer than that, if you look at the statistics closer, as
counting in for 90% of the mass of all known meteorites are the 20 largest
iron finds.

So better we should avoid the word "morality".

And if you take a look on meteorite pricing of the 200 years before,
then it is quite strange to impute greed to any involved in meteorites.
If a Nininger would have been paid - and he had to fight a lot in his life -
at the actual rates, meteorites are going for, he hadn't lifted a finger
and America would be now several chapters worse off I his glorious meteorite
history.

As always, only a personal opinion...

Martin

  


-----Urspr?ngliche Nachricht-----
Von: cdtucson at cox.net [mailto:cdtucson at cox.net]
Gesendet: Montag, 18. Mai 2009 23:23
An: meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com; Martin Altmann
Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] NWA planetaries and Moroccans

Martin
As usual, I agree with everything you said. What I saw here in this thread
if you read between the lines are pricing issues and for that IMCA has no
control. Adam is complaining once again about somebody else selling paired
material and somehow price became an issue. That's all I was referring to.
If Greg wants to sell Lunar for less than Adam, what has IMCA to do with
this?
Carl
IMCA 5829

---- Martin Altmann <altmann at meteorite-martin.de> wrote:
> Mike, please...
>
> I just opened the ebay-site, searched for "meteori*",
> got 1681 results.
>
> Please show me those auctions from IMCA-members, where fakes, not
authentic
> or at least doubtful material (regarding the authenticity) are offered.
>
> And then list me those auctions from non-IMCA-members, where fakes, non
> authentic and doubtful material is offered.
>
> IMCA was founded to make meteorite trades safer for all.
> The result of your comparision will be, I dare to foresee, quite
convincing,
> that that IMCA-thing already could be called quite a success.
>
> I guess, if you'll search for "Sideroli" and "nandan", "meteori* +sphere"
> and "tibet +meteori*" ect. you will directly obtain your first 20-50
fakes,
> ..to make it a little bit easier.
>
> Hmm those meteoritic "carbonados" currently en vogue, I just can found
only
> 2 offered. Together 50 k$..... a nice sum to go shopping for real
> meteorites.
>
> To lazy (US-ebay is working so slowly on my computer since weeks?) to
check
> how many tektites currently are offered there to the layman to have
> originated from the Moon...
>
> That's what IMCA mainly is about.
>
> And I'm so ooooold, that I know the times before IMCA and how the
situation
> was there, where everyone could sell any stone from his garden as
meteorite,
> with the rookie, the laypeople, the unexperienced having zero possibility
to
> know something about authenticity and having zero guidelines.
> Now his chances to be ripped off are definitely lower, when he looks for
the
> IMCA-labels.
>
> (And I have by far less people to console in my practise, who bought crap
as
> meteorites, than the years before).
>
> I for myself am astonished, how few complaints about alleged misdemeanour
or
> fraud of IMCA-members reach IMCA.
> Remember IMCA is statuably obligated to proof each and every case
reported.
> And in turn, if nobody complains, IMCA can't know the case.
> Remember that instrument is available for ALL, for non-members too, as
long
> as the wrongdoing party is a member.
> Do you know any similar service in the meteoritic field?
>
> Hmm perhaps another, more empiric thought:
> Why do so many dealers, collector-dealers, collectors and those, who
> frequently or sporadically trade, sell, swap meteorites join IMCA,
> if that club is only a joke?
> Nobody urges them to do that, it's there free will and it even costs them
20
> bucks and makes their transactions more difficult, if they obey the code
of
> ethics.
>
> So why?
> If we let aside all that pathetic stuff about enthusiasm, education,
safety
> for the consumer (shhht no outcry now please, I know that many of you
joined
> also because of these intentions, but I try to explain something)
> and reduce that affair to the most disdainful or trivial reason: the
> commercial thing, the money, which I almost fear, at least if I read the
> recent postings of some of the list, seems to be the most understandable
and
> maybe important factor in their collectors life.....
>
> Why the heck then most are eager to join IMCA, if they don't see any
> advantage for them in it?
>
> Obviously something with that IMCA and the labels seems to work.
> And that can't be directly influenced by the IMCA-members and directors
> (else than their sedulous conduct and work)
> cause their must have happened something with the ominous "consumer" -
ugly
> word,
> that it turned out to be an advantage for most offerers (or at least in
> their opininion) to use the IMCA-label.
>
> If it would be meaningless, why would the offerers use it then?
>
> Of course there are very honourable offerers and dealers too,
> who do without - not so seldom their reputation and integrity seems to be
> work alone as well.
> (Have to say that, only to avoid the always identic discussions).
> But if one counts, I guess, meanwhile the majority of meteorite offerers
ate
> members of IMCA.
>
> It is easy to scoff about something, harder it is to improve a grievance.
> IMCA was born by the idea of few, who were very discontented about the
> situation regarding the safety on the meteorite market (especially with
the
> still quite new ebay then) - maybe so discontent like you and others are
> about IMCA - and felt, that something had to be done.
> They had the ideas and realized them with their own efforts and if I see
the
> results after those few years only - and I wasn't a member from beginning
on
> - then I have to pay my highest deference to the founders.
>
> An opinion only, my opinion
> Martin
>
>
> -----Urspr?ngliche Nachricht-----
> Von: meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com
> [mailto:meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com] Im Auftrag von
Galactic
> Stone & Ironworks
> Gesendet: Montag, 18. Mai 2009 20:58
> An: meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com
> Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] NWA planetaries and Moroccans
>
> "hi all
> this what the IMCA is for , the imca members protect themselves by
> being members,
>
> if somone is stolen or ripped off he goes to i.m.c.a. and he put a
> reclamation, than the imca make a black list of the no honnest
> dealers,
>
> so i encourage everybody to be member of IMCA..."
>
> ROTFLMAO!
>
> That's rich. Thanks for the smile today. ;)
>
>
>
> On 5/18/09, habibi abdelaziz <azizhabibi at yahoo.com> wrote:
> >
> > hi all
> > this what the IMCA is for , the imca members protect themselves by
being
> > members,
> >
> > if somone is stolen or ripped off he goes to i.m.c.a. and he put a
> > reclamation, than the imca make a black list of the no honnest dealers,
> >
> > so i encourage everybody to be member of IMCA...
> >
> > i also ask morrocan dealer to be members from the imca and to fallow the
> > rules , this will give good notorite to morrocans delears and also will
> > protect them to be ripped off by anyone else, and give agood image of
the
> > morrocans delears.
> > meantime i ask the imca to make it easy for the morrocans to be members,
> and
> > later ask them to fallow the rules,
> >
> > thanks
> >
> >
> > habibi aziz
> > box 70 erfoud 52200 morroco
> > phone. 21235576145
> > fax.21235576170</font>
> >
> >
> >
> > ______________________________________________
> > http://www.meteoritecentral.com
> > Meteorite-list mailing list
> > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com
> > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
> >
>
>
> --
> .........................................................
> Michael Gilmer (Louisiana, USA)
> Member of the Meteoritical Society.
> Member of the Bayou Region Stargazers Network.
> Websites - http://www.galactic-stone.com and http://www.glassthrower.com
> ..........................................................
> ______________________________________________
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Received on Mon 18 May 2009 06:45:48 PM PDT