[meteorite-list] Fwd: Re: Meteoroids Before Meteorites

From: cdtucson at cox.net <cdtucson_at_meteoritecentral.com>
Date: Sat, 14 Mar 2009 12:14:40 -0700
Message-ID: <20090314151440.ZUACA.134330.imail_at_fed1rmwml31>

> Date: Sat, 14 Mar 2009 15:13:15 -0400
> From: <cdtucson at cox.net>
> To: Mr EMan <mstreman53 at yahoo.com>
> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Meteoroids Before Meteorites
>
> Elton,
> Yes, I have read all about the theory of ablation. Not much doubt that there is something to that. As science is based on a system of acquiring knowledge, I believe that we must keep our minds open as new and sometimes different information is gathered.
> In my opinion, What this "stone 6" study tells us is that some of the time there is clearly NO ablation. It all depends on the rock type? This is actually very significant information if you think about it. Here we have Millions of dollars spent on THE ONLY study ever conducted to see what happens to six different rocks upon re-entry through our atmosphere. How can you simply dismiss the results? No the facts don't fit neatly into our ablation theories do they. In fact this study brings to doubt the whole ablation theory. If you take it one step further , what is of even more interest is that the one stone that is most similar to true known meteorites did in fact disappear. It may well have ablated to nothing. But why only that stone? Or did it simply fall off? Why did all of the others survive? Why did all but one of the others survive without any fusion crust? Why did the only one with what might pass for fusion crust end up with creamy white crust? It's gotta make you wonder, doesn't it? In science we
should not ignore the facts because they are inconvenient and do not support previous theories. In my mind this is the most significant proof of what happens to various rocks during and after re-entry and if it causes the books on ablation to have to be trashed then so be it. Another very significant piece of this study shows us that even though the bacteria died sometime in the process, we were still able to detect the dead bacteria. This information is huge. Now we just need to find rocks from space with bacteria and now we know what the rocks might look like. This should open up the eyes of our scientific community to begin to look at rocks with different surfaces. Not just depend on Black coated rocks. In fact crust is so insignificant that there is not even a way to prove crust is crust. At this point I'm inclined to think that All we can do is guess.
> This study also showed for a fact that minerals do change in space. We already knew that but now for the first time we have certifiable proof. Too me this is interesting as it may relate to Bruno's Chassignite. It looks totally different than it's name sake. It could not look more different which shows that looks matter not. It is literally black instead of white. Amazing.
> As you know there have been many re-writings involving some other well educated guesses in our world. Just two years ago if you had been told that a stony meteorite as fragile as Carancas could cause a huge crater you would have laughed.
> Another recent discovery of water found in glass from the moon also has scientists in need of re- evaluating the Moon. Before this it was thought to be a dry planet. Yes the moon can no longer be said to be dry. This opens up too many possibilities to even think of. We now know we don't know much about the moon. This shouldn't really surprise anyone . We know we only explored a very small percentage of the Moons surface. But does prove that we know a lot less than we thought we knew.
> I recently read an abstract about carbonates on Mars. The mapping photos showed significant amounts of stuff including carbonates. If you show any scientist any rock today with a noticeable amount of calcite they would not even consider a second look. So, hopefully these new points will encourage closer looks at all rock types. And better yet maybe this will encourage science to devise an easy way of truly recognizing and identify rocks from space. We now rely far to much on an ablation theory that causes crust that as of now may be simply wrong.
> Again,To be clear. My earlier point about this black layer was contrary to the ablation theory. What I meant was this mysterious layer , wherever it came from may have already been on the stones and actually protects them from the re-entry forces which might normally have destroyed them. We put protective shied tiles on our shuttle. Maybe nature puts one on our space rocks. Thanks.
> Carl Esparza
> IMCA 5829
> Meteoritemax
>
>
>
>
> ---- Mr EMan <mstreman53 at yahoo.com> wrote:
> >
> > Let me discuss this another way. Carl I believe that you really didn't mean to say that the color of a space weathered meteoroid's surface is the reason it is black when it reaches the ground. Ordinary chondrites arrive mostly blackish/charcoal-gray because of a melted film of magnetite and high iron silicates which forms black glass--Not because of their pre-entry colors which are moot once ablation begins.
> >
> > External color before entry has practically nothing per se to do with color after entry. Color before entry was what was being discussed and the reasoning behind that has already been posted. Fusion crust has to do with composition which is why the link you provided leads to a false impression about normal fusion crust colors and how they relate to matrix colors.
> >
> > The "fusion" crust of a sandstone meteorite would hardly be typical. Seems to me that you are mixing up fusion crust color and meteoroid matrix colors. If not please explain how West was black already and now is white inside???? If you really believe the crust in space is the same crust after entry then I encourage you to do some more reading about how much of a meteoroid is lost due to ablation.
> >
> > Elton
> >
> > --- On Fri, 3/13/09, cdtucson at cox.net <cdtucson at cox.net> wrote:
> >
> > > From: cdtucson at cox.net <cdtucson at cox.net>
> > > Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Meteoroids Before Meteorites
> > > To: meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com, "Eric Wichman" <eric at meteoritewatch.com>
> > > Date: Friday, March 13, 2009, 3:40 PM
> > > Eric,
> > > This is a very interesting question to me because ; How do
> > > we know what color these west rocks were prior to entering
> > > our Atmosphere?Maybe we don't? As seen in the video of
> > > the fall it looks to me that something came apart in
> > > mid-air. But maybe those are represented by only the broken
> > > ones found on the ground. What if the complete stones
> > > actually came in black? It is not a stretch to imagine that
> > > because we simply do not know the answer. There is no way we
> > > could know. Before you think I'm crazy consider the only
> > > bit of information we know for a fact was done by the
> > > Europeans called "stone6".
> > > http://www.spacedaily.com/reports/Stone_6_Artificial_Meteorite_Shows_Martian_Impactors_Could_Carry_Traces_Of_Life_999.html
> > > In this experiment none of the rocks turned black. Some of
> > > the rocks in fact did not change colors at all. and the ones
> > > that did, changed to a creamy white crust.
> > > So, who is to say these rocks are not already black while
> > > traveling through space. The evidence here actually leans in
> > > that direction. Maybe these rocks were already coated with
> > > black crust and that is what protects them from evaporation
> > > when they travel through our atmosphere.
> > > Again, this may sound silly but if you look at the evidence
> > > from this study and you acknowledge the fact that the things
> > > we do see in space are in fact already dark it does make you
> > > wonder. Maybe our atmosphere is not the reason they are
> > > black after all? Something else comes to mind, We have all
> > > seen pictures of meteors traveling through our atmosphere
> > > and then back out again. Wouldn't those accumulate crust
> > > and then continue on there journey? ???.
> > > Carl Esparza
> > > IMCA 5829
> > > Meteoritemaxa
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Received on Sat 14 Mar 2009 03:14:40 PM PDT