[meteorite-list] The tale of a falling star

From: Mexicodoug <mexicodoug_at_meteoritecentral.com>
Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 05:09:33 -0400
Message-ID: <8CBB7C24DBBF244-EFC-631_at_webmail-dh04.sysops.aol.com>

Sterling wrote:

"So, no, no ancient ruins "yielded" authenticated meteorites. You see,
there was this obscure religious cult that took over and tried, with
great success, to destroy all traces of any previous religious worship,
temples, shrines, relics, and so forth."

His Sterling, List, Rob M and Greg H,

I asked if anyone could come up with an example of an authentic
meteorite being found in any ancient ruins outside the Americas, after
reading this great recap of Camp Verde. This really wasn't motivated by
religion; more it was just from this exciting type of meteorite
recovery in hand making a bridge from the modern world too the past,
and because I have become very skeptical of the author of that article
apparently using Lawrence Garvie as his source and others' claims, that
meteorites have been found in ancient ruins worldwide. Well, if you
can't Google up any meteorites found from ruins outside the Americas,
so now it is officially independently confirmed at least to me, thank
you!! :-) Let me now, raise this one level further:

So far, it would seem that the Americas, and in fact, only North
America (please correct me if you recall something found in any South
American ruins because I can't despite Campo and the real Incan Empire,
etc...).

Regarding meteorites being found in ancient ruins ... in fact, outside
Brenham, Glorieta, Canyon Diablo, Casas Grandes, and Chihuahua - the
list seems20to end, unless you add a few more from some mounds in, fine,
again, the US, this time its southeast. It ends so abruptly that it
feels like I am abysmally missing something big (No, Willamette was not
found in any ruins, and it is in US territory anyway)... Maybe I should
have added Namibia and Mongolia, Greenland and Siberia? By no means
does this need to be restricted to ancient Mediterranean region and
Arabian Peninsula, though they get the most lip service.

Are the only places meteorites have been found in ancient ruins, then,
in North America, between the latitudes of Florida and Ohio? Somehow
this is shocking as well as disconcerting with 20/20 meteoritic vision
on the past ...

Oh, before I forget to mention this, which is another unrelated general
comment about the article: this paragraph was really interesting for
comparison with Greg's exciting Ocate, NM iron:

"The interesting thing about Camp Verde is that it does not look like
the other Canyon Diablo irons," Moore says. "Its chemistry, however, is
identical. So the only conclusion we can make is that it is a piece of
Canyon Diablo."

I wonder what Dr. Moore would say regarding Ocate if he had a chance to
look at it?

To Rob's table I have added the ranges from Buchwald (1975) to show
some variation among other researchers /specimens in testing for the
two elements Rob identified as potential outliers for a pairing: Ga and

Ge. Also from Buchwald are the old results Wasson (1968) showed for
Camp Verde though the experimental uncertainties were not listed in the
book. You can see the outliers by Rob's method, suddenly seem to be
part of the pack just by comparing things holistically rather than
assuming test methodology and specific samples tested to have
reproducible uniformity.

Elem. Ocate, NM Canyon Diablo Diff. Sigma
----- -------------- --------------- ----- -----
Ni 69.9 +/- 0.5 69.2 +/- 1.7 0.7 < 1
Co 0.466 +/- 0.004 0.468 +/- 0.015 0.002 << 1

Ga 71.9 +/- 0.3 83.8 +/- 3.4 11.9 3.2
***(VB 74 - 81.8, Camp Verde 78)***

Ge 271 +/- 6 322 +/- 19 51 2.0
***(VB 283 - 324, Camp Verde 322)***

Ir 2.25 +/- 0.04 2.17 +/- 0.07 0.08 < 1
Au 1.60 +/- 0.03 1.57 +/- 0.11 0.03 << 1
As 15.2 +/- 0.3 12.7 +/- 0.7 2.5 2.5
Cu 119 +/- 11 148 +/- 6 29 1.7
W 0.87 +/- 0.08 0.99 +/- .129 0.12 < 1
Re 0.22 +/- 0.02 0.228 +/- 0.027 0.008 << 1

To be clear, IMO if Ocate is indeed a transported Canyon Diablo,it can
only be more interesting, and greatly more especially, if the
morphology compares favorably to Camp Verde. Has the Ocate mass photo
been posted yet? I hope the Canadian classifiers can share their
analytical notes on material and methods, with Wasson, Moore and Co.,
and appreciate their work with Greg in getting this interesting find
done relatively quickly.


Best wishes, Doug

----
-Original Message-----
From: Sterling K. Webb <sterling_k_webb at sbcglobal.net>
To: Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com; Mexicodoug <mexicodoug at aim.com>
Sent: Tue, 9 Jun 2009 11:57 pm
Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] The tale of a falling star
Everybody wants a meteorite for their Temple, ya know??
?
?
Sterling K. Webb?
--------------------------------------------------------------------?
----- Original Message ----- From: "Mexicodoug" <mexicodoug at aim.com>?
To: <Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com>?
Sent: Tuesday, June 09, 2009 10:40 PM?
Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] The tale of a falling star?
?
> Great article, though this paragraph about other "meteors" being 
found > need editing:?
>?
> "Other meteors have been located in ancient ruins of the Americas, as?
> well as around the world, ranging in size from the three ounce?
> Pojoaque meteorite, found in an ancient pottery bowl near Santa Fe,?
> N.M., to the 3,407-pound Casas Grandes iron discovered in an Inca 
ruin?
> near Chihuahua, Mexico."?
>?
> The Incas, of course are not from Chihuahua, but a good fraction of a 
 > world away in Peru ... The author is referring to the Paquim? pueblo 
 > of the probably Anasazi Pueblo type Indians (Like from the US > 
southwest), though they may have had a tad more of Aztec influence. > 
And the meteorite is from INSIDE Chihuahua (the state), and NEAR > 
Nuevas Casas Grandes. It was found far from Chih
uahua City actually > 
much closer to Arizona which is just 93 miles away. Political > 
boundaries...bah :-)?
>?
> Does anyone recall what other ancient ruins yielded authenticated > 
meteorites outside the Americas as claiming by the article they are > 
found "all around the world in ancient ruins". I am thinking Greece, > 
Cyprus and Turkey, but no meteorite comes to mind. And the Japanese > 
one was certainly not found in ruins.?
>?
> Another tear shed today after reading about the other Grand Canyon > 
fragment...?
>?
> "In 1953, after America abandoned Route 66, Nininger moved his?
> collection to Sedona, where it was put on display in the Verde Valley?
> for the first time in nearly 800 yea?
> rs."?
>?
> One (at least me) wonders whether the "800 year buried piece of 
Canyon > Diablo (Camp Verde piece)" was ever at all "on display" on the 
Native > American Sinagua or if it was placed to rest with that stone > 
ceremonially out of sight with respects being rendered specifically > 
NOT to be displayed, I am not sure how this statement about displaying 
 > could be made in the article with any accuracy, and suppose the 
author > really got carried away trying to say the Camp Verde piece is 
on > display in the Verde Vally of AZ...but not sure; thanks for the 
post!?
>?
> Best wishes,?
> Doug?
>?
>?
> -----Original Mess
age-----?
> From: Michael Groetz <mpg4444 at gmail.com>?
> To: Meteorite List <Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com>?
> Sent: Tue, 9 Jun 2009 8:37 pm?
> Subject: [meteorite-list] The tale of a falling star?
>?
>?
>?
> 
http://verdenews.com/main.asp?SectionID=1&subsectionID=1&articleID=31230?
>?
> The tale of a falling star?
> By Steve Ayers, Staff Reporter?
>?
> Tuesday, June 09, 2009?
>?
> CAMP VERDE - George Dawson was no stranger to hard work.?
>?
> A seasoned construction hand, he traveled extensively throughout?
> Central America and the American southwest, moving mountains for 
money?
> and, when time allowed, doing some digging on his own for both fun 
and?
> profit.?
>?
> In the spring of 1927, Dawson found himself between jobs. A Phoenix?
> resident, he loaded his truck with supplies and tools of his trade,?
> and headed north, hoping the fertile ground of the Verde Valley would?
> surren?
> der its ancient treasures.?
>?
> Pothunters like Dawson knew the valley to be a steady source of 
income?
> for anyone willing to turn over a few stones.?
>?
> For this tri

Received on Wed 10 Jun 2009 05:09:33 AM PDT