[meteorite-list] Arizona fall

From: Martin Altmann <altmann_at_meteoritecentral.com>
Date: Mon, 6 Jul 2009 04:47:46 +0200
Message-ID: <005801c9fde4$252ce5c0$177f2a59_at_name86d88d87e2>

Hi Adam,

I was just told, that in US a meteorite always gets part of the land :-(



Mike G., I'd rather say:

Science always first
with a preemption to buy or to get all in exchange for a fair compensation.
The height of compensation has to be known before of course, else nobody
will come for searching (see Denmark).

But naturally there has to be a prologue.
Hunters/experts or those on whose heads the stone are falling
are coming somewhat before first.

Cause else no meteorite falls are narrowed down and no meteorites are found.

Ownership - landowner - no idea. If 100% of the meteorites shall belong to
the landowner, probably that will reduce the number of finds.

There are so many models possible.

Desert states with now prohibitive laws due to paranoia but not able or
willing to finance own expeditions - give them a part of each find for free.
20% for classification, 20% for the state - and they will get quantities
they never dreamed of and which they never could find by their own.
Controlled by MetSoc.

But let the people hunt!

Yep makes meteorites 20-25% more expensive for collectors and scientists,
but so what, the prices of the rare types have fallen with a factor 10-50
from the early desert times on (solely due private hunting activities),
so we will survive.

To protect single huge strewnfields or masses - a matter of course, no
question.

The Argentines were enervated that the Campos were removed - no problem call
it a natural monument. But to forbid all export of all meteorites at once is
an overreaction.
Someone should tell the officials there, that there exist more meteorites
than only Campo in Argentina and that there will fall new ones... I'm not
sure that they mix it up with something like a dinosaur.

And please, a 100g-crumb half-buried in the soil in the middle of nowhere
shall not be called a natural monument.

One really doesn't need that much fantasy.

Something like that what happened in Australia, in Libya, or which they try
to enforce in Oman or Algeria is not wise,
cause less or almost no meteorites will end in the institutes and at much
higher costs.

In fact we simply have to get away, finally, finally, from the so often
propagated humbug,
that science would have to compete with private hunters, dealers,
collectors.

What shall this be for a competition?
If science doesn't search for meteorites, they don't take part in a
competition. There is no competition.

All interesting finds made by the private side are readily available to
scientists too and that at much lower costs, as they would have to find them
by their own, in a larger variety than they would find. (and a part of the
finds they even get for free --> classification).
Is that a competition?

A price competition?
All meteorites got so cheap like never before in history.
The only expensive ones, where the collectors drove up the prices,
are these, which aren't available, cause they are kept in museums and
universities. - Hellooo, you already got theeeem!

Since centuries the private side isn't competing with the official side but
supplying the main load of meteorites, they have in their collection and
labs and where they are working on.
And that from the dawn of meteoritics on.

O.k. they can have a competition, but then they have to enter the
competition and have to carry out search campaigns.
Then we can talk about laws.
But as long as they don't do it is silly.

To close the deserts...to me it almost seems like a sullen call of a child
in the sand-box:
If we are not able to find meteorites by our own, you should neither!

Nja.. we meteorite collectors won't die, if we won't have meteorites
anymore, life will go on without,
but what shall a meteorite scientist do without meteorites?


Ouch, that was such a trivial posting, that I'm ashamed of.
But I refuse to believe - despite we read that issue still so often in
articles -
that there are still people in that meteorite scene, who are even more
stupid than me.

Off to bed.
Martin Barriere

Dreaming to be in Arizona...

 

-----Urspr?ngliche Nachricht-----
Von: Galactic Stone & Ironworks [mailto:meteoritemike at gmail.com]
Gesendet: Montag, 6. Juli 2009 03:39
An: Martin Altmann
Cc: meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com
Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] Arizona fall

Well put Martin. :)

Private landowner first - if the meteorite falls on private property.
(large corporations and governments need not apply)

Science next - with the hopes that private landowner will do the right
thing and donate some of the fall to science.

Hunters next - they do the real work to bring the specimens to light.

Collectors and peanut gallery last - our dollars provide the incentive
for all of the above (with the exception of science) to care about
meteorites. But we don't do the field work or the science.

I don't begrudge anyone who is out there in the field working this new
Arizona strewnfield - provided that they are doing the right thing for
the landowners and science. I envy them and wish I could be there
too. Congrats again to Jack and company for working this new fall.

Early question - what will this fall be called? What is the nearest
geological feature or post office?

Early question #2 - any guesses on what the type might be?

Best regards and happy hunting,

MikeG




On 7/5/09, Martin Altmann <altmann at meteorite-martin.de> wrote:
> Yes Jeff,
>
> in a positive sense, cause meteorites are certainly no resources.
> And else I can't find meteorites mentioned at all there.
>
> And if I follow the sentence (according Austrian laws) about the Austrian
> part of the Neuschwanstein fall, it offers an interesting aspect,
> which might has to be proven first:
>
> There they decided, that the meteorite (recovered 3 years after the fall)
> had NOT became part of the land it was found on.
>
> Interesting, isn't it?
>
> Anyway, we can indulge in legal persnicketinesses as long as we want,
> clear is,
> that we will totally ruin that subbranch of space and Earth science,
> the more crude laws come into force or are tried to be overstreched.
>
> Because if not private people would pick the meteorite up - like they did
> the 200 years before to deliver 90% or more of the non-Antarctic finds or
> falls, who else should do it?
>
> With West we heard that one single person from the science side entered
the
> field. Art Ehlmann.
>
> Then we have a Suisse team searching Oman and that was it on Earth.
> Else sporadically some university teams, who recover always not more than
2
> or 3 stones, almost all old ordinary chondrites of minor scientific value.
>
> Antarctica is fine, but they can't bring the performance the private
people
> are doing around the globe (that Antarcica is 100 times more expensive,
one
> hasn't to mention anymore) and they can't recover fresh falls.
>
> If we want such a complete breakdown like in Australia, then we should
carry
> on in inventing more and more restrictions.
>
> I'm writing from Europe, where half of the observed falls of the decade
> wouldn't have been recovered or noticed at all, if not private people
would
> have cared for
> and where the tkws of very most of the other half would have stayed very
> tiny, if the private section hadn't added so many.
>
> It should be one of the most urgent missions of the Meteoritical Society
in
> London to take care for politics and legislation around the world turning
> back to a state of reason and to grant that the very substance of that
field
> of science won't be lost.
>
> Until that isn't achieved, hunters, scientists and collectors - come to
> Austria.
>
> Gosh, we're talking about meteorites. The most whack and strangest and
> rarest objects on Earth, without any cultural, economical or natural
> importance. And of solely scientific interest, where the researchers are
> glad and happy that people are going out to look for them.
> How anyone with a brain could come to the idea to make a law for
meteorites?
>
>
> So - let's handle the case more pragmactically:
> Let Schrader, Farmer & Co. save the stones first and the strewnfield data,
> before we hang them for the crime to have recovered a new pristine fall
for
> science and a fall of historical dimensions for the State of Arizona.
>
> Anybody else here, who feels the absurdity the same way like me?
> Martin
>
>
> -----Urspr?ngliche Nachricht-----
> Von: meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com
> [mailto:meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com] Im Auftrag von Jeff
> Grossman
> Gesendet: Montag, 6. Juli 2009 02:37
> An: Meteorite-list
> Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] Arizona fall
>
> I am skeptical that this covers meteorites, even if a BLM employee
> thinks it does. Very skeptical.
>
> jeff
>
> Adam Hupe wrote:
>> Dear List,
>>
>> A question came up about who owns meteorites found on federal land.
>>
>> Below is a link that can be cut and pasted into a browser that discusses
> removal of minerals from federal land. I was told by a BLM officer that
150
> pounds can be removed a year for non-commercial/hobby purposes. The BLM
> will issue free non-commercial use permits if requested. I found that they
> will even mail them to you free. If you are caught removing minerals
> without one, the fines can be as great as $100,000.00 or a year in jail.
>>
>> If a meteorite weighs more than 150 pounds, it will have to be cut in the
> field and the rest recovered during subsequent years or the Smithsonian
may
> claim it. The BLM can and will come after you if profits from any object
> including meteorites are taken from the sale of minerals from federal
land.
> I was told that eBay is monitored all of time and notes taken. I made
some
> poor agent spend more than an hour on the phone explaining what is and
isn't
> acceptable to them to avoid future problems.
>>
>> The good news is that you can keep the meteorites!
>>
>> I think Jack,s approach of keeping the press out of this fall is well
> thought out. The first thing the press will do is mention there is
monetary
> value in meteorites and then "Gold Fever" will set in. I have seen people
do
> strange things and come up with poorly thought out plans when "Gold Fever"
> takes hold. People with this affliction are usually the ones that
> relentlessly chase the press instead of looking for meteorites themselves.
> They will stab fellow hunters in the back and forget all about long-forged
> friendships. They are best avoided all-together.
>>
>> Here is a link that will explain mineral laws in simple English:
>>
>>
>
http://www.blm.gov/pgdata/etc/medialib/blm/wo/MINERALS__REALTY__AND_RESOURCE
> _PROTECTION_/non-energy_minerals.Par.48557.File.dat/sand.pdf
>>
>>
>> By the way, Congratulations Jack, excellent job all around!
>>
>>
>> Best Regards,
>>
>> Adam
>>
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>>
>
>
> --
> Dr. Jeffrey N. Grossman phone: (703) 648-6184
> US Geological Survey fax: (703) 648-6383
> 954 National Center
> Reston, VA 20192, USA
>
>
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-- 
.........................................................
Michael Gilmer (Louisiana, USA)
Member of the Meteoritical Society.
Member of the Bayou Region Stargazers Network.
Websites - http://www.galactic-stone.com and http://www.glassthrower.com
..........................................................

Received on Sun 05 Jul 2009 10:47:46 PM PDT