[meteorite-list] Progress or ruination?

From: Michael Gilmer <michael_w_gilmer_at_meteoritecentral.com>
Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2009 11:14:22 -0800 (PST)
Message-ID: <993248.38685.qm_at_web58403.mail.re3.yahoo.com>

Hi Steve,

You do make some good points that are well worth considering. I am
not an enemy of progress, but I do hate to see this progress come
at the cost of the surrounding natural environment or the dignity of
local cultures. It's a fine line to walk. I do think that all peoples
should be able to read, write, voice their opinions, and be free to
pursue whatever makes them happy if it hurts nobody else - even
if that happiness is a gold mansion with a platinum toliet seat, or
if it's a hand-hewn log cabin in the Ozarks.

Steve, I really envy this part of your reply :

"NOTICE: All these comments come from a guy who lives in the sticks of
Arkansas, in a dry county without a single movie theater or even a single stop
light, who lives in a hand hewn dog trot log cabin built in 1866 and who just
got TV a couple of weeks ago and who home schools his kids."

I used to live in a dry county in rural northern Mississippi (New
Albany), and I loved the lack of hustle and bustle. I am one of
those people you mention who wants to get back to a simpler lifestyle.
And my fantasies of a National-Geographic-like trip to the Atacama
has just been squashed by visions of Land Rovers full of well-heeled
tourists and highways strewn with trash. I guess we still have
the Gobi in rural Mongolia. I have a penpal over there whose mother
is a shaman and lives in a yurt. He says the skies are fantastically
dark and there is no development outside of the major cities. Now
that sounds like paradise to me.

BTW, shouldn't the Gobi be a good source of meteorites? I asked
him about this, but I don't recall what he said. I'll have to go
dig for his reply in my inbox mountain.

I apologize as well for getting this off-topic.

Best regards and clear skies,

MikeG


.........................................................
Michael Gilmer (Louisiana, USA)
Member of the Meteoritical Society.
Member of the Bayou Region Stargazers Network.
Websites - http://www.galactic-stone.com and http://www.glassthrower.com
MySpace - http://www.myspace.com/fine_meteorites_4_sale
..........................................................



--- On Fri, 1/9/09, MeteorHntr at aol.com <MeteorHntr at aol.com> wrote:

> From: MeteorHntr at aol.com <MeteorHntr at aol.com>
> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Progress or ruination?
> To: michael_w_gilmer at yahoo.com
> Cc: meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com
> Date: Friday, January 9, 2009, 12:38 PM
> Hey MikeG,
>
> First off, the Atacama is a very large place. Lot's
> of meteorites still to
> be found in desolate areas. I don't think there will
> be any concern about
> filling up a fraction of 1% of it, much less all of it.
> There would be room
> for several billion inmates if anyone decided to build a
> prison there.
>
> WARNING, I am swerving off the Meteorite Topic in the rest
> of my email!
>
> Second, I do want to take issue with you on your comment:
>
> "But, we also have to recognize that opinions such as
> these reflect our
> cultural values. We are trying, again, to force our views
> of life
> and standards of living on other cultures. The wealthy
> powers have
> always done this - we are saving the savages from
> damnation and
> bringing them the dignity of literacy and running water.
> Sound
> familiar?"
>
> I really don't think this is a matter of western
> culture's Hollywood forcing
> their morals on the rest of the world people who are
> living a more
> traditional life. I think this is a matter of letting
> people make the choice for
> themselves. There is a reason why Coca-Cola is
> everywhere, there is something
> about it that makes people like to buy it once the pop
> machine is plugged in.
>
> Actually, I would think historically there is more
> precedent for the wealthy
> powers to want to keep the masses poor, dependent and
> ignorant, rather than
> prosperous, independent and educated.
>
> It seems around the world, it is the local leaders (often
> religious) that
> want to stop our western culture from spreading into their
> strongholds, and all
> the while it is their people, that they control, that want
> the freedom.
>
> Yes, rich people or governments (not that the Chilean
> Government should be
> considered "wealthy") will be putting up the
> hotels and will cultivate the
> tourism. Yes, it might encroach on some people that want
> the old simple life in
> the San Pedro hut. But, if the business efforts are
> successful, then the
> poor people can sell their hut for $1,000,000 move a
> hundred kilometers down
> the dirt road, build or buy another $1,000 house, and put
> the rest of the
> money under their mattress, or burn it for a cooking fire.
>
> Ask 500 poor people in the village if they each want
> $1,000,000 and the
> choices of life that money would bring, or to be stuck in
> their poverty? My
> guess is that 498 will say they want the money and the
> choices it brings.
>
> Such is progress. I think letting people have their own
> choice is
> important. More often than not, people that are held
> back, without the choices, are
> ones that would rather break out of the restraints of
> their parents culture.
> After all, it wasn't a child's fault they were
> born when and where they were.
>
> The irony is that many in our modern western culture are
> tired of it, and
> are looking for something new, or in some cases, something
> old. Cool. That is
> what choice and freedom are all about. And a little
> prosperity helps one
> have more choices.
>
> NOTICE: All these comments come from a guy who lives in
> the sticks of
> Arkansas, in a dry county without a single movie theater or
> even a single stop
> light, who lives in a hand hewn dog trot log cabin built in
> 1866 and who just
> got TV a couple of weeks ago and who home schools his kids.
>
> I know, such an email as this can incite riots.
>
> And I would probably agree with 99% of what people say
> about how evil our
> culture is, and how it would be best if the rest of the
> world was NOT like us.
>
> Anyway, I just know how excited I was to get away from the
> culture of my
> small Kansas town I grew up in, to get to the big city
> culture when I got out of
> high school.
>
> The grass is always greener, isn't it?
>
> Choices are wonderful.
>
> God Bless America!
>
> Steve Arnold #1
> Arkansas
>
>
>
>
>
> In a message dated 1/9/2009 11:36:02 A.M. Central Standard
> Time,
> michael_w_gilmer at yahoo.com writes:
> Hi Steve and Mike,
>
> I would be one hell of a pretentious upstart to disagree
> with someone
> who has actually been there. My travels in the Atacama are
> limited
> to armchair fantasies and future pipe dreams. I do hope to
> visit
> there one day in the future, but I'd like it to look
> like ATACAMA
> when I get there, and not Orlando Florida.
>
> Steve, I can't argue with the logic and rationale of
> what you say here :
>
> -----------------
>
> "But, also as unforgettable, was all the trash
> strewn about the highway for
> thousands of miles up and down the Pan American highway.
> Somebody forgot to
> put up the "Keep Chile Clean" signs. Litter
> was so abundant, especially at
> railroad crossings. Burned out cars and buses were
> sitting on the side of
> the
> road from car wrecks years if not decades before. What
> 99% of people saw
> when traveling on the highway(s) of Chile was the trash,
> not the beauty.
> You
> had to get off the highway before things would clean up.
>
> So to me, my hunch is that if there are high class hotels
> coming in to the
> San Pedro de Atacama, my bet is that they will at least
> clean the trash up
> on
> and around their own property. They might even pay to
> have the other trash
> in public areas cleaned up as well. So in a way, the
> development might be a
> good thing.
>
> And the situation with the residents there, imprisoned in
> poverty, is sad.
> I am sure they, like most anyone else in the civilized
> world would like to
> have a good job, be able to afford TV, a nice car, good
> health care, maybe
> be
> able to send their kids off to college to have a CHOICE as
> to what they want
> to do with their life.
> For those of us with enough money to travel there, it is
> fun, but we get to
> leave and choose where we go next. To be stuck there for
> one's whole life,
> it might get to be a drag after a while. If they can make
> a buck and
> improve
> their life, who are we to say that is bad?"
>
> -----------------------------------------------
>
> But, we also have to recognize that opinions such as these
> reflect our
> cultural values. We are trying, again, to force our views
> of life
> and standards of living on other cultures. The wealthy
> powers have
> always done this - we are saving the savages from
> damnation and
> bringing them the dignity of literacy and running water.
> Sound
> familiar? It's the first step on the well-worn path
> to cultural
> genocide. Of course Coca Cola is better than their local
> concoction
> made of who knows what. And of course Starbucks expresso
> would be
> a nice treat while combing the deserts. And it would be
> nice to
> have a payphone in the middle of the desert, or cellphone
> service
> to call a tow truck. But these people have lived this way
> for
> centuries and they are fine with it. We, as
> "civilized" westerners,
> are the ones who have a problem with their apparent
> poverty. At
> what cost does one sell a soul? To be honest, I don't
> know if this
> represents "progress" to any of the locals.
> Sure, it means a few
> more pity dollars thrown their way by wealthy travelistas,
> but it
> also means the disappearance of another culture that has
> existed for
> centuries without outside interference and dominance.
>
> Having said all of that, litter is natural places disgusts
> me. And
> I have never understood what it is about being poor than
> means a
> person has an excuse to be filthy. I drive past
> economically-depressed
> areas and see dozens of able-bodied people lounging around
> or loitering around
> while they are surrounded by trash everywhere. None of
> them think to take 5
> minutes and pick it up and put it in a dumpster that is
> usually 10 feet away.
> Apparently being poor is
> intrinsically related to tolerance of trash and dirt. Even
> if I was
> spit-poor, I'd have the cleanest and neatest mud hut in
> the village.
>
> Well, I guess when we have a wall-to-wall neon and concrete
> world, then
> we'll finally be happy....right? Or will this
> compulsive need to
> spread "progress" extend to other cultures we
> encounter while
> exploring space?
>
> Best regards and clear skies from the closet-mountain-man,
>
> MikeG



      
Received on Fri 09 Jan 2009 02:14:22 PM PST