[meteorite-list] time to feed some knuckle sandwiches
From: Dave Gheesling <dave_at_meteoritecentral.com>
Date: Sun, 1 Feb 2009 22:49:51 -0500 Message-ID: <0D39013084E9472BBCD1CEFB26FE41FF_at_meteorroom> Hello, All, Sorry to come in late on this one, but I'm just catching up on this thread. Hopefully the suggestion I've quoted below didn't get anywhere, as this sort of concession would not only be completely unwarranted but also very well the beginning of the end. Stop selling Campos?! Even with those list members -- whom I must respectfully yet completely disagree with on this -- who would like to see the values of meteorites fall such that they can keep "dollar cost averaging" (as we call it here in the US) and eventually buy meteorites for nothing, this would seem to to fall astray of any reasonable aims to maximize material recovery and, therefore, availability...? "3. As mentioned before, IMCA members would have to agree to follow very strict rules of conduct concerning other countries laws, that may mean the removal of listings and sales of certain falls, would the bigger dealers be willing to stop selling things (such as Campos for example) if it were required to move forward with this? Obviously certian concessions may have to be made, as a group would we be willing to do that?" All best, Dave www.fallingrocks.com ----- Original Message ----- From: Greg Catterton <mailto:star_wars_collector at yahoo.com> To: IMCA at imcamail.de Sent: Saturday, January 31, 2009 3:44 AM Subject: Re: [IMCA] IMCA stance on exportation law But to take a stand on an issue, one should know what exactly they will be standing for... I think to make such a stand for an issue of this nature, one should have a plan and goals set. The things you dont want this to drift to, in my opinion are all factors in what the final outcome would be. It would be easy and probably not as effective to say "The IMCA endorses free market meteorite exportation" but why? What are the reasons we want it? what will a post to a website do? If the IMCA is to make a change, we should have an outline as to the reasons why and the benifits as well as a plan to make a change, not just a post to a website. To have free export would be a good thing and I am all for what you are saying, I just think for a statement to be made that will actually mean something, it needs to be able to have something to back it up. Someplace that does not allow exportation will not give that up unless they are getting something out of it.... why should they? I may be thinking too big here, but if you think a simple post to the IMCA website will do anything, I think you are wrong. I am not taking a stab at anyone who sells meteorites, if not for them, I would not have a collection to enjoy. I simply think these are issues that should be addressed before a public statement is issued. Greg C. --- On Fri, 1/30/09, McCartney Taylor <mccartney at blackbearddata.com> wrote: From: McCartney Taylor <mccartney at blackbearddata.com> Subject: Re: [IMCA] IMCA stance on exportation law To: IMCA at imcamail.de, IMCA at imcamail.de Date: Friday, January 30, 2009, 7:58 PM This issue clearly is beginning to get mission creep. I'm only asking IMCA to take a position, and post it. That's it. Simple. The Board decides to endorse free market exportation or something else. Then posts it to their website. This issue could be deliberated by email and posted to the website within 24 hours. Please don't let side issue get wrapped up in the main issue. Don't let the issue drift to: 1. weight the ethics of dealers vs science institutions 2. find a policy for the handling of exportation of material 3. education outreach 4. make every member swear on a bible some oath 5. design and implement the logistics of enforcement 6. finance a 2 year long study to contemplate the issue -------- Original Message -------- > From: Greg Catterton <star_wars_collector at yahoo.com <http://us.mc01g.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=star_wars_collector at yahoo.com> > > Sent: Friday, January 30, 2009 6:15 PM > To: IMCA at imcamail.de <http://us.mc01g.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=IMCA at imcamail.de> > Subject: Re: [IMCA] IMCA stance on exportation law > > I think the most important thing to do if the IMCA is to do this is start now. > > Questions I would have and things I would like to see discussed. > ** I use the term "dealer" as anyone who would profit off the sale of the meteorites ** > > 1. What would the intent be of this? For dealers to buy/sell or scientific study or both? > > 2. If for dealer use, would we back an idea/suggestion that some sort of % of material to be donated for study? I know of several small science centers and local schools that would really benifit from having material for educational use and public display that simply dont have the budget to aquire meteorites. There are also many college geology depts that dont have the access to them. > I think that by offering a certian % of all material exported for educational/research use would go along way to showing good intent and not just wanting to make money of selling them. > > 3. As mentioned before, IMCA members would have to agree to follow very strict rules of conduct concerning other countries laws, that may mean the removal of listings and sales of certain falls, would the bigger dealers be willing to stop selling things (such as Campos for example) if it were required to move forward with this? Obviously certian concessions may have to be made, as a group would we be willing to do that? > > 4. To undertake something of this nature we would most likely need money to go about this, how would we get it together? > > 5. Im sure this is something that would require alot of time invested into it from most likely many people... do we have the people to do this that can spend the amount of time needed? > > 6. Would the fact that many of the IMCA members are dealers give the wrong impression? > > 7. The IMCA should be able to show contributions to science/education and members who do this (without doing becouse of needing to meet requirements of testing/classification, for monetary gain etc..) should get the information together to present a sincere intent to benifit others - I really think this would be the best way to proceed. > > 8. We need to have something to allow dealers to sell and collectors to collect, that is after all why we are all members... I think it will be a delicate balance and alot of headache to do this in a way that best reflects the IMCA members as a group. > > 9. would this pertain to members of the IMCA only or everybody in general? I think an IMCA only thing might be good as it would be easier to "police" the actions of exporters and also give the IMCA board more say in issues, but doing an IMCA only thing could also have downsides... > > > > --- On Fri, 1/30/09, Rob McCafferty <rob_mccafferty at yahoo.com <http://us.mc01g.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=rob_mccafferty at yahoo.com> > wrote: > > > From: Rob McCafferty <rob_mccafferty at yahoo.com <http://us.mc01g.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=rob_mccafferty at yahoo.com> > > Subject: [IMCA] IMCA stance on exportation law > To: ncc at meteoris.de <http://us.mc01g.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=ncc at meteoris.de> , IMCA at imcamail.de <http://us.mc01g.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=IMCA at imcamail.de> > Date: Friday, January 30, 2009, 6:28 PM > > > There have been many good points raised in this discussion. > > That MetSoc are not entirely supportive of collectors is unfortunate but perhaps, predictable. > It cannot have escaped the attention of anyone involved in collecting/dealing meteoritic material in the last few years, that there is a proportion of the meteorite community who are extremely voiciferous in their objection toward those who collect and deal. Words such as pirates and bounty hunters are unhelpful and I dearly hope do not reflect my character under the rankings of ordinary people. > > However, certain considerations must be taken into account. > > Many meteorites fall in under-developed nations or areas. These, due to their large geographical areas are difficult to police or have underdeveloped laws. > In developed nations, the public perception of rocks of huge value being hightailed out to foreigners may be seen as "unsavoury". > > The perception is that material is being stolen. > > Whatever your feelings on this perception, it is real to some people who are prepared to make a lot of noise about it and noisy people tend to get heard. It doesn't matter whether they're right and that's an important point to remember. Often the people listening are the ones who make the legislation. > > In some countries, particularly the underdeveloped, the perception of theft raises the concept of social injustice. > In richer ones, struggling with social systems to support, governments may feel a need to prevent such "wealth" (however fortuitously gained) from being squandered by the material leaving the country. I know that doesn't make sense but we all know how the free press and democratic government works. > This is by no means an exhaustive assesment of the situation but it is representative. > > Finders keepers is an idealised scenario. It simply cannot work, though. If a 4kg lunar landed in your yard and your neighbour went into your yard to pick it up and made a fortune from it, how would you feel? > > Forget trespass laws, just consider the concept from a worldwide perspective. If I found a meteorite on a pavement/sidewalk....do I own it? > Surely, if the council maintain the pavement, I am duty bound to tell them. Do they own it? Do I get part of it? > > The IMCA is supposed to be supporting the interests of meteorite collectors and dealers worldwide. > I have my own ideas as to how this is best done and they will not be universally popular. > > We must agree to uphold every soveriegn nations laws, whether we agree with them or not. > Our members must be familiar with the export laws for each nation they wish to deal with and adhere to them unwaveringly. > We must not allow our members to flout laws of sovereign nations. > We must endeavour to provide impartial advice and guidance that can inform policy makers of such laws as they are being made. > > As the NWA fields dry up, it will become more important not to find ourselves marginalised. > > I am thoroughly convinced that we, as a community, have advanced the science of meteoritics more in the last 10 years than in the past 10,000 combined.. > > We have to set our rules to support every nation. > We must enforce those rules vigorously. > May the most honest and fair dealer (and collectors in general) win. > > Rob > > > > > > --- On Fri, 1/30/09, Norbert Classen <ncc at meteoris.de <http://us.mc01g.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=ncc at meteoris.de> > wrote: > > > From: Norbert Classen <ncc at meteoris.de <http://us.mc01g.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=ncc at meteoris.de> > > > Subject: AW: [IMCA] IMCA stance on exportation law > > To: leandro.saracino at oacl.net <http://us.mc01g.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=leandro.saracino at oacl.net> , IMCA at imcamail.de <http://us.mc01g.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=IMCA at imcamail.de> > > Date: Friday, January 30, 2009, 11:56 AM > > Dear Leandro, McCartney, Mark, Greg, and All, > > > > We at the Board of Directors have been following this > > discussion with much > > interest, especially since we are discussing this issue on > > Board since some > > months now. Actually, we are planning to send a delegation > > of IMCA Board > > members (who are also Meteoritical Society members) to this > > years MetSoc > > Meeting in Nancy, France, to attend the Meeting, and > > especially the > > discussion of the MetSocs Ethics Group which is already > > working on > > suggestions to Governments re new meteorite laws, and legal > > restrictions. > > This is very important as the suggestions of the MetSocs > > Ethics Group are > > everything else but collector/hunter friendly, and so we > > will have to act. > > Fortunatelly, the suggestions of the Ethics Group were > > turned down last year > > by the MetSoc Council because they didn't represent all > > parties and > > interests involved, and so the IMCA will take this chance > > to speak up for > > these other "parties". > > > > However, lots of homework has to be done regarding working > > out our > > "official" stance on meteorite laws. Even among > > us Board members (who are > > from different countries with different legal systems, and > > backgrounds) > > there is no perfect agreement regarding some very basic > > questions such as > > meteorite ownership. While the laws of many countries > > consider the landowner > > as the rightful owner of a meteorite which fell or was > > recovered on his > > property other countries consider a meteorite to be a > > "res nullius", an > > object with no former owner that becomes the property of > > the finder through > > the act of appropriation. Like the German court that ruled > > that the finder > > of the second mass of Neuschwanstein is the legal owner > > against the claims > > of Austria (where it was recovered) I personally also tend > > to that > > interpretation, i.e., to regard a meteorite as a true > > "res nullius". But > > then other Board members are making good points in arguing > > against it and in > > favor of the rights of the landowner. > > > > I'm just telling this to show you that there are many > > things to consider, > > and that we are in the process of doing our homework, also > > to be prepared > > for the Nancy Meeting. This will also most certainly leed > > to an official > > stance of the IMCA on meteorite laws, and meteorite > > exportation laws. So > > your discussion is more than welcome as it gives us some > > more insights in > > the interests and positions of our Membership, and > > additional input for our > > Board discussions. Thanks for speaking up. > > > > All the best, > > Norbert Classen > > President IMCA Inc. > > > > PS: Due to the ongoing Tucson show some of our Board > > members will not be > > able to take part in this discussion, but be assured that > > your voices are > > heard, and that we will come back to this issue as soon as > > the show is over. > > > > _____ > > > > Von: imca-bounces at imcamail.de <http://us.mc01g.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=imca-bounces at imcamail.de> > > [mailto:imca-bounces at imcamail.de <http://us.mc01g.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=imca-bounces at imcamail.de> ] Im Auftrag > > von leandro.saracino at oacl.net <http://us.mc01g.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=leandro.saracino at oacl.net> > > Gesendet: Freitag, 30. Januar 2009 12:17 > > An: IMCA at imcamail.de <http://us.mc01g.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=IMCA at imcamail.de> > > Betreff: [IMCA] IMCA stance on exportation law > > > > > > Greg (C.), Steve, all, > > generalizing a single behaviour to the whole community of > > scientists does > > not help us understand what we can do. > > Doing science on a meteorite is time consuming, it is a lab > > work and it must > > be made carefully, and usually one doesn't need a huge > > quantity of material. > > So a meteorite scientist is more interested in someone > > sending to his/her > > lab a bit of a new fall/find and study it, than going to > > the field and find > > the stones on his/her own. Getting funds for the research > > itself is already > > hard, consider asking much more money for continuous field > > trips to every > > corner of the world! > > No, only a stupid scientist would ask his/her government to > > block meteorite > > hunting in his/her country. And scientists are not stupid > > people. Anyway, > > the jealousy you are speaking of can be restricted to a few > > events of new > > falls, and then only to the more scientifically interesting > > ones; I can't > > imagine a scientist jealous of letting dealers ger some > > money on a new > > ordinary H5... > > Greg, I agree it may happen and that in a few cases it may > > have already > > happened, but I'm sure that's not the rule. > > Let us also consider that sometimes a government or some > > scientists of that > > given country, can be irritated by the behaviour of some > > prospectors, either > > for right or wrong reasons. Maybe some of the actual laws > > in many countries > > are more a way to get rid of the problem than to solve it. > > I don't think > > that the amount of money being circulated by the meteorite > > market might be > > even taken in consideration by governments; simply the > > figures are way too > > low to be interesting. But they react to what they > > don't understand, and > > their reaction can be a bad law. > > What we can surely do is being recognized as a bone fide > > organization that > > can work together with governments and scientific > > institutions in saving, > > keeping and studying meteorites, and then starting a series > > of official > > endeavours to clarify to governments and citizens what is > > the real meaning > > and usefulness of the meteorite science and collecting. > > Politicians must understand that any unrecovered, > > segregated and unstudied > > meteorite is a precious information lost to Mankind, both > > in terms of pure > > Science and of potential safety from the Cosmic Hazard. A > > meteorite buried > > in the sand or in the arctic ices is useful to nobody, but > > also a meteorite > > that lays untouched and unstudied on a dusty shelf of a > > museum is of very > > little utility to knowledge. > > My thought is very simple: let them be educated, before > > imposing to them a > > rule of any kind. > > > > Yes, we (IMCA) can (make it)! :-) > > > > Leandro > > IMCA 2689 > > > > _______________________________________________ > > IMCA mailing list > > IMCA at imcamail.de <http://us.mc01g.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=IMCA at imcamail.de> > > http://lists.imcamail.de/mailman/listinfo/imca > > > > _______________________________________________ > IMCA mailing list > IMCA at imcamail.de <http://us.mc01g.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=IMCA at imcamail.de> > http://lists.imcamail.de/mailman/listinfo/imca > > _______________________________________________ > IMCA mailing list > IMCA at imcamail.de <http://us.mc01g.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=IMCA at imcamail.de> > http://lists.imcamail.de/mailman/listinfo/imca _______________________________________________ IMCA mailing list IMCA at imcamail.de <http://us.mc01g.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=IMCA at imcamail.de> http://lists.imcamail.de/mailman/listinfo/imca ________________________________ _______________________________________________ IMCA mailing list IMCA at imcamail.de http://lists.imcamail.de/mailman/listinfo/imca Received on Sun 01 Feb 2009 10:49:51 PM PST |
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