[meteorite-list] Willamette

From: Jason Utas <meteoritekid_at_meteoritecentral.com>
Date: Thu, 10 Dec 2009 14:27:28 -0800
Message-ID: <93aaac890912101427x35cc4564hdafef4969cd6d320_at_mail.gmail.com>

Hello Darryl, E.P.,
I'd like to intrude briefly, if I might.

This whole situation doesn't make much sense.

Firstly, I've never seen a shred of proof that would suggest that the
meteorite was indeed a sacred object for the natives. While it *may*
have been an object of note in their community, so far as I can
recall, no native american artifacts were noted as having been found
in the vicinity of it when it was originally found by Ellis Hughes.
In light of that fact, this is the kind of situation where I would
look back through literature to see if the meteorite's religious
importance was noted *anywhere* by the local natives over time, but I
have never seen such a reference. Ellis Hughes found it, took it, it
went to the AMNH, and a hundred years later, a tribe said it held
religious significance for them. It doesn't make sense.

These are a people who have undoubtedly been wronged: that goes
without saying. However, as Darryl notes, they do seem to be
exploiting many aspects of their cultural and spiritual heritage for
monetary purposes (I'm not saying this is a bad thing, but one should
note that things like the "Sacred Mountain Casino" negate any
semblance of religious respect on their part).

In my opinion, this was likely a legal shot in the dark for the tribe.
 You're looking at a people dispossessed of their land and their way
of life (not that their new one isn't so bad, running a casino and
all), who have tried everything they could to get it back. So you
have a group of people hoping to get some of what was theirs back from
the people who took it. They know that the land aspect of it (that is
to say, getting back land lost to settlers, etc.) is a lost cause,
but...a large meteorite formerly in their territory, potentially worth
millions of dollars, and few legal precedents in the judicial world of
such things? Why not try to get it...?

I'm not trying to say that they're greedy, especially when the
opposite is true - one shouldn't forget that the entire continent was
once every Native Americans' home - but in this case, from what I read
of the situation, their claims weren't based on anything historical.
>From the self-performed desecration of various religious aspects of
their culture for commercial gain, to the fact that the meteorite
issue wasn't even *mentioned* until a hundred years after the fact,
it's all just a bit strange.

Beyond that...if anything, it sounds as though the admittance of a
right of ownership of the tribe by the AMNH (if this did actually
occur) is similar in nature to Senate Joint Resolution #4, which has
been long-proposed, but has never been formally voted on or passed,
for a number of reasons. The goal of the bill was to get the American
government to formally admit wrongdoing with regards to how they
treated the Native American population.
Would this mean that the Native Americans would get their land back? No.
Would this mean further reparations? No.
So bringing up the fact that the AMNH admitted that the meteorite may
once have been an object over which the Native Americans had some
claim - not to say that the AMNH said this, or that the Native
Americans did have any real interest in the object before settlers
took over, since both of those things are ultimately unknown - all of
that means nothing since it in no way implies that they have any right
of ownership now. Unless you're saying that, with the passing of S.J.
Res. 4, the majority of the United States will revert to Native
American ownership.

To be frank, it seems like you're making a big deal out of this in an
attempt to make it some sort of symbolic victory for the Native
Americans.
I mean, why Wilamette? Why not, say, Winona? Casas Grandes?
Hopewell? Bonita Springs? Navajo? All of these had some importance
to the native population, and all of these were in turn taken away
from their respective tribes.
And, it should be noted that while some interest was expressed in each
of these meteorites by the natives, none of these was deemed an
important part of these groups' spiritual lives, from what I gather.
There are many more culturally relevant landmarks - namely mountains,
rivers, and lakes - and other areas of natural and geologic interest
that hold much more weight with regards to the spiritual interests of
a number of tribes, especially with regards to their use in rituals,
etc.
But you focus on Willamette? It's strange.

There are too many things here that just don't make sense.

Regards,
Jason

On Thu, Dec 10, 2009 at 12:51 PM, E.P. Grondine <epgrondine at yahoo.com> wrote:
> Hi Darryl -
>
> I must say that your own correspondence on this this year has been much better than last year's, I wish that others would follow your lead in keeping a civil tone, and limiting their derogatory comments. (This is not meant for you, but I am pretty sure that the GR would be very happy to trade their casino for the lands that were taken from them.)
>
> I agree with you about moving on, as I have said about all I want to say on this, but note one last thing:
>
> The agreement between the AMNH and the GR recognized GR's ownership rights.
> If in the future, the GR decides to use money from that casino to pursue this, it may leave purchasers in a bind, just as it left you in a bind, and those future binds may come back to haunt you again. Let me emphasize, their lack of current response should not be taken as any indication of their future plans.
>
> Again, I would urge you contact them again, and give them the full particulars of what occurred to you; perhaps if the GR leaders do not offer you a way out, the AMNH leaders may.
>
> You have my sympathy for the position you have inadvertently found yourself in, "dangling in the wind", and for the work that lies before you in finding a way out of it.
>
> Best wishes,
> Ed
>
> --- On Thu, 12/10/09, Darryl Pitt <darryl at dof3.com> wrote:
>
>> From: Darryl Pitt <darryl at dof3.com>
>> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Willamette
>> To: "E.P. Grondine" <epgrondine at yahoo.com>
>> Cc: countdeiro at earthlink.net, mail at mhmeteorites.com, meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com, meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com
>> Date: Thursday, December 10, 2009, 2:27 PM
>>
>>
>>
>> Hi Again, E.P.,
>>
>> Thanks for the inherent goodness in your note. ?I'm
>> sorry you're being rebutted by so many on the list; it's
>> certainly not the intention to gang up on you.
>>
>> Similarly, this really isn't about me or what I should
>> do. ?At issue has been the demonstrable interest on the
>> part of the GR to acquire Willamette specimens.
>>
>> Respectfully, ?I simply cannot accept that the GR
>> leadership, the same leadership which saw fit to merge the
>> contradictory notions of a "Sacred Mountain" and a "Casino"
>> into what is now the "Sacred Mountain Casino" would find it
>> awkward and have a "tough time" dealing with me or Matt.
>>
>> This could have readily been sorted out. The Grand Ronde
>> and/or the American Museum of Natural History could have
>> easily helped provide a solution if motivated to do so, but
>> apparently there was no such motivation and I was left
>> dangling in the wind.
>>
>> You are mistaken in your speculation that the GR has been
>> unaware of my interests in finding a happy resolution.
>> That's just not accurate. I hope you are now clear as it
>> regards the GR's insufficient interest in acquiring portions
>> of the meteorite---and again, that's okay.
>>
>> Let's please agree to move on. This is an old story which
>> is fraught with loaded issues which are currently
>> irreconcilable. ?All sides of the story have been told
>> and all intentions and agendas have been revealed.
>>
>>
>> All the best, truly,
>>
>>
>> Darryl
>>
>>
>>
>> On Dec 10, 2009, at 10:17 AM, E.P. Grondine wrote:
>>
>> > Hi Darryl, list -
>> >
>> > Darryl, you have my sympathy for walking into a real
>> mess - you traded a meteorite of real value for the
>> Willamette piece, and did not know of the problems at the
>> time.
>> >
>> > From what I have seen, generally Native American
>> spiritual guides and ?leadership have a tough time
>> dealing with anyone who would desecrate (in their view) a
>> religious object.
>> >
>> > I also think that they don't know you are looking for
>> a way out of this mess - that is why I suggest to you that
>> you contact them, and carefully explain to them what
>> occurred, and the current situation. They will explain to
>> you the reasons for their rejection of the 10 kg piece, and
>> perhaps help you in finding a good path our of the current
>> difficulty.
>> >
>> > Best wishes,
>> > E.P. Grondine
>> > Man and Impact in the Americas
>> >
>> >
>> > --- On Thu, 12/10/09, Darryl Pitt <darryl at dof3.com>
>> wrote:
>> >
>> >> From: Darryl Pitt <darryl at dof3.com>
>> >> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Willamette
>> >> To: countdeiro at earthlink.net
>> >> Cc: mail at mhmeteorites.com,
>> "E.P. Grondine" <epgrondine at yahoo.com>,
>> meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com,
>> meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com
>> >> Date: Thursday, December 10, 2009, 12:05 AM
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Dear List and E.P.:
>> >>
>> >> Long ago I've come to respect the GR's belief that
>> it is
>> >> wrong to participate in a financial value being
>> placed on a
>> >> revered and sacred object---even though I've
>> personally
>> >> believed that a valuation of such items is only a
>> reflection
>> >> of the value ascribed by non-tribal members.
>> >>
>> >> Anyway, let's use your logic, E.P. ?Don't you
>> think if
>> >> the GR was sincerely interested in a Willamette
>> acquisition
>> >> they would have been proactive and reached out to
>> a
>> >> benefactor by now? ?Please, take a moment and
>> think
>> >> about it.
>> >>
>> >> And then please also consider that when the AMNH
>> offered to
>> >> provide a ~10 kg specimen to the GR, this was
>> also
>> >> rejected.
>> >>
>> >> In short, it would seem compelling the GR is not
>> really so
>> >> interested in a large specimen of Willamette---and
>> that's
>> >> okay!
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Respectfully and Peacefully,
>> >>
>> >> Darryl
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Darryl
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> On Dec 10, 2009, at 12:11 AM, countdeiro at earthlink.net
>> >> wrote:
>> >>
>> >>> The Grand Ronde band of American Indians own
>> the
>> >> largest and most profitable hotel/casino in
>> Oregon. Anybody
>> >> who is at least 1/8th GR gets a percentage every
>> month . I
>> >> wouldn't bother either.
>> >>> Count Deiro
>> >>>
>> >>> -----Original Message-----
>> >>>> From: Matt Morgan <mail at mhmeteorites.com>
>> >>>> Sent: Dec 9, 2009 11:04 PM
>> >>>> To: "E.P. Grondine" <epgrondine at yahoo.com>,
>> >> meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com,
>> >> meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com
>> >>>> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Willamette
>> >>>>
>> >>>> FYI, I offered the GR a generous slice of
>> my
>> >> Willamette and they didn't even respond to
>> me. ?If I
>> >> were Darryl, I wouldn't even bother.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Matt Morgan
>> >>>> ------Original Message------
>> >>>> From: E.P. Grondine
>> >>>> Sender: meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com
>> >>>> To: meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com
>> >>>> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Willamette
>> >>>> Sent: Dec 9, 2009 8:44 PM
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Darryl -
>> >>>>
>> >>>> May I suggest to you that perhaps it would
>> be best
>> >> to find a buyer for the Willamette piece who
>> wanted a tax
>> >> write off for gifting it back to the Grand Ronde
>> peoples? I
>> >> don't know their financial situation, or plans,
>> but I would
>> >> suggest contacting their elders as well before
>> doing
>> >> anything.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> E.P. Grondine
>> >>>> Man and Impact in the Americas
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> ______________________________________________
>> >>>> http://www.meteoritecentral.com
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>> >>>> Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com
>> >>>> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>> ----------------------
>> >>>> Matt Morgan
>> >>>> Mile High Meteorites
>> >>>> http://www.mhmeteorites.com
>> >>>> P.O. Box 151293
>> >>>> Lakewood, CO 80215 USA
>> >>>>
>> ______________________________________________
>> >>>> http://www.meteoritecentral.com
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>> >>>
>> >>>
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>> >>
>> >
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
>
>
>
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Received on Thu 10 Dec 2009 05:27:28 PM PST