[meteorite-list] -2 arrested update (Dude-- Where's My Caredition)

From: Erik Fisler <erikfwebb_at_meteoritecentral.com>
Date: Thu, 2 Apr 2009 23:48:27 -0700
Message-ID: <COL119-W501515D096D067AA528D1A4890_at_phx.gbl>

Has anyone read "Inherit The Wind"???
 
What if this is something along the lines of
everyone in the town hating meteorite hunters
becuase of their hate for evolution...?
 
[Erik]

----------------------------------------
> Date: Thu, 2 Apr 2009 23:23:49 -0700
> From: eric at meteoritesusa.com
> To: carothersdl at gmail.com; meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com
> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] -2 arrested update (Dude-- Where's My Caredition)
>
> Hello all,
>
> Dave, In response to your comment.
> -----------------------------
> "If you own the property, you have no obligation to explain why you
> don't want someone on your property and you sure don't have to justify
> or validate any reason if you decide to provide more than a "NO!"
> answer. ..I agree that conversation is useful, but can you also see that
> pushing the envelope and pressing soneone for a "reason" and not to say
> that you would actually do this, but potentially argue the validity of
> the "reason" would surely sour any land owner..."
> -----------------------------
>
> I agree you should respect the landowners wishes, but should everyone
> take the first "NO" for the final answer and walk away out of respect
> for their decision and leave it at that? If that were the case half the
> businesses in the world would fail. It's not just about respect, this is
> a matter of conscience and if it matters to you so much then simply
> don't ask the question. To others it isn't as "BIG" an issue to ask
> questions of anyone regardless of stature. No disrespect intended. Just
> my opinion.
>
> Jason, in response to your comment.
> --------------------------------------------
> "..If you somehow managed to spend $10,000 on your trip, well - you
> would only need to sell 150 grams of material at your price of $65/g to
> cover your costs. You've asked some pretty 'off' questions, so here are
> a few of my own - how much of your stock have you sold, and how much
> money have you made?.."
> --------------------------------------------
>
> I would say you are a smart kid and I'm impressed with your enthusiasm.
> However I disagree with your ideas on business. It's not just about
> simply recovering costs. It's about making a living and growing the
> business at the same time. And if I may be so bold and use the word
> profit, which seems to be the "bad" word in this whole ethics debate. If
> you ever had to live on your own "and" run a business at the same time,
> and support a family, mortgage, car payments, groceries, and personal
> bills you would understand the importance of being able to not only
> cover your bills but your business expenses as well as grow your
> company. To grow your business a good profit must be made.
>
> In business to charge the highest price a market will bear is directly
> related to supply and demand. If a product is plentiful that products
> price is naturally lower than if the product in question were less
> available. Even so, if the market will support $100/g for a particular
> product that price is a "fair market price". Don't you have an X-Box
> 360? You remember how high the cost was when they first came out? Around
> $500+ if I remember right. Now you can buy them for around $200 a
> decrease of 60%.
>
> That's a fair market price and a good example of a market finding a
> natural balance right? My point is when a product is first available
> that products price regardless of what it is will be determined by
> demand and what people are "willing" to pay to get it. How many parents
> stood in line at the local Wal-Mart and Best Buy to purchase the first
> release of the latest "toy" whether it be an X-Box, PS3, Plasma TV, or
> Tickle Me Elmo.
>
> It's reasonable to expect anyone to charge what they feel is a fair
> price. It's again is about conscience and perceived fairness. Business
> is about profit whether you agree or not. You grow a business by
> reinvesting a portion of that profit back into a company, so you need to
> have a larger profit to grow a smaller business. Larger companies
> needn't have larger profits because they compensate the lower retail
> price with buying power that results in lower wholesale costs to them.
>
> Business ethics and meteorite hunting ethics go hand in hand when a
> dealer is in the field. He must be respectful of the landowners yet pay
> a fair market price. But don't forget he must be able to afford that
> price as well. $10/g might be high for someone where $20/g might be a
> good price for others.
>
> If the supplier (landowner) believes he or she received a good price and
> was treated fairly then that's good for business. If you paid a low
> enough price for any given product to in turn sell at a higher price and
> make a good profit isn't that good business? I wonder what the margins
> were for the X-Box. Costs for businesses are higher at the opening bell.
> At the end of the day the free market will find a balance based on
> supply and demand.
>
> I ask anyone to fairly and honestly answer this question. If you have
> investments in the market (401K etc.) wouldn't you want those
> investments to give you the highest return possible? You don't have to
> be a businessperson to understand the concept of profit. When investing
> in stocks, bonds, CDs, funds, your annual % yield is your profit. If you
> have a problem with higher prices don't pay them and wait for the market
> to stabilize. It always does.
>
> As for the ethics of hunting on private land. Check local laws. And
> never hunt on private land without permission. I believe Mike and Sonny,
> and take them at their word the they were unaware they were on private
> land, and had they suspected it might be private property I would think
> they wouldn't have been there in the first place. If the punishment fits
> the crime, then I think a slap on the wrist is needed, but a $2000+ fine
> and being banned from the county? I think that was more editorial and
> artistic license I think by the paper and strictness by the judge. I
> agree something seems a bit fishy as Steve says. It doesn't sound right
> or make sense why the punishment was so harsh. I grew up in the south
> (Florida not 250+ miles from Augusta) and am familiar with the type of
> private roads described. To me it might be natural to think twice before
> walking down an unmarked road in that area. But out here in the
> southwest it's different. Mike and Sonny didn't do anything that would
> warrant such harsh punishment in my opinion.
>
> Hunting on private land is a privilege not a right. Respect the
> landowners wishes, work with them and they will work with you. Treat the
> landowners fairly and they will most likely reward you with extended
> permission. Who knows, you might just make a new friend. I know we did
> in West, Texas and would not hesitate to invite many of the people we
> met out there over for dinner. We were treated nice by most, and in all
> our dealings out there we came away with new friends and had a great
> adventure.
>
> On a more personal note since I seem to be typing a book here I want to
> say some things and clear the air so to speak. I love meteorites. They
> are my passion and I am fortunate enough to be able to make them a part
> of my life as my career choice. To be able to make a living doing
> something I love is the ultimate reward. The knowledge gained from the
> study of meteorites has changed my life. I never would have guessed I
> would have fallen in love with meteorites such as I have. Many people
> out there in meteorite land don't know me, and I want to say this for
> the record. I have a genuine passion and love for meteorites that is
> topped only by my love for family. To be able to work in the career
> field I am so passionate about is something I am thankful for everyday.
> I have met and hunted with some great people in this business. And
> whether you agree with my opinions or not I will always treat you fairly
> and honestly whether you like it or not. ;)
>
> Regards,
> Eric
>
> P.S. I know this is a long email but I feel I'm forgetting to mention
> something, I'm sure you'll remind me. I'm tired, it's 11:20 and I'm
> going to bed. Nite all...
>
>
> dave carothers wrote:
>> Hi Steve,
>>
>> I'll briefly reply in the same manner...
>>
>> In a message dated 4/2/2009 7:05 PM
>> MeteorHntr at aol.com writes:
>>
>> Steve said:
>>
>> Were they actually burglars, or were they just knocking on her door
>> asking
>> to use the phone for their broken down car?
>>
>> I am sure they were probably burglars. But my point is, just because a
>> newspaper says something, doesn't make it so. Almost EVERY
>> meteorite story ever
>> published has minor if not major flaws in them. And these are not
>> typically
>> stories where a reporter's bias could be blamed for the bad journalism.
>> Almost ALL journalism is shotty today. I just don't believe anything
>> in print,
>> just because it is in print.
>>
>> Maybe Sonny and Mike are lucky to only have to pay $2,000. Maybe
>> they were
>> unlucky to have to pay $2,000. Yes, they might have been shot. I
>> like and
>> respect Sonny and Mike too. I agree, without asking permission, they
>> did not
>> belong there.
>>
>>
>> *******
>> The point I was making about the landowner and the burglers was to
>> illustrate that Sonny and Mike (or anyone in a similar position)
>> doesn't necessarily know the background or local history of the area
>> and what suspicions and fears may be present, hence, my follow-on
>> about the possibility of their getting shot. The bottom line is I
>> think we all agree that getting permission first in the only way to go.
>>
>> *******
>>
>> Steve said:
>>
>> Thanks for the correction Dave. I think I have only seen the phrase
>> "Get
>> the hell out of Dodge" in old western movies, usually relating to
>> Dodge City,
>> Kansas. But arrogant law men are slightly different than judges
>> sitting on a
>> bench with a stenographer recording every statement. Besides, is
>> Hollywood's
>> perspective always the way it really happens in life?
>>
>> Of course, IF Mike and Sonny had already made a plea agreement, or
>> simply
>> plead guilty (whether they really were guilty or not) throwing
>> themselves at
>> the mercy of the court, the judge I presume could puff up his chest
>> and say
>> about anything he wanted.
>>
>> And, I don't mean to imply that if either of them were arrested again,
>> and
>> brought before the same judge, that he would not be more strict the
>> second time
>> around. I don't doubt he would throw the book at them.
>>
>> My preface was that this story seemed a bit fishy to me, that is all.
>>
>> Do judges in Georgia run for public election? "Re-elect Judge
>> Daniel, he's
>> tough on space crime!" might be a good campaign slogan.
>>
>> *******
>>
>> I've worked with the law enforcement community for 12 years and while
>> the vast majority are there to serve the public interest, there are
>> those (police, attorneys, and judges) who abuse their positions to the
>> detriment of the public. In my previous post, I guess I was surprised
>> by the fact that you appeard to find it "unusual" for such a comment
>> to be made by a judge.
>>
>> *******
>>
>> Steve said:
>>
>> Dave, with all due respect to you, I like to engage people in
>> conversations.
>> Me doing so with that man had nothing to do with me being arrogant. If
>> someone has an objection, in sales one learns to flush out those
>> objections. If
>> you don't know the objections, then how do you overcome them? Often
>> times,
>> people have very valid objections. Other times, they don't.
>>
>> Unless a person comes out with their excuse, or if one asks, it is
>> hard to
>> find out why they object. Granted, people lie. Sometimes they will
>> say they
>> don't want you to hunt because 23 years ago, a fisherman left a gate
>> open and
>> some cows got out. But usually that isn't a valid reason for never
>> letting
>> anyone ever come on their land again.
>>
>> Yes, of course, with private property, people don't have to have a
>> reason.
>> But usually they do have a reason. Unless it is brought out, it is
>> often
>> hard to rationally talk with someone about a solution.
>>
>> [snip]
>>
>> *******
>>
>> I thank you for the detailed explanation, but I still have issue with
>> your idea that a land owner would owe you an explanation other than
>> "No" when asked to search their property. You state above that
>> "Sometimes they will say they don't want you to hunt because 23 years
>> ago, a fisherman left a gate open and some cows got out. But usually
>> that isn't a valid reason for never letting anyone ever come on their
>> land again." That is where the arrogance appears. If someone left a
>> gate open 23 or 50 years ago and the property owner doesn't want
>> anyone else to EVER come on the property again. So be it. You may not
>> like the reason, but who are you to judge the validity of the
>> decision? You also state "Often times, people have very valid
>> objections. Other times, they don't." I'll say it again... If you
>> own the property, you have no obligation to explain why you don't want
>> someone on your property and you sure don't have to justify or
>> validate any reason if you decide to provide more than a "NO!" answer.
>>
>> I agree that conversation is useful, but can you also see that pushing
>> the envelope and pressing soneone for a "reason" and not to say that
>> you would actually do this, but potentially argue the validity of the
>> "reason" would surely sour any land owner.
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Dave
>> ______________________________________________
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>
>
> --
> Regards,
> Eric Wichman
> Meteorites USA
> http://www.meteoritesusa.com
> 904-236-5394
>
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Received on Fri 03 Apr 2009 02:48:27 AM PDT