[meteorite-list] RFS Picture of the Day: Phil Morgan's Flyer

From: mexicodoug at aim.com <mexicodoug_at_meteoritecentral.com>
Date: Mon, 07 Jul 2008 21:28:36 -0400
Message-ID: <8CAAEB1129E3A3D-13C0-E3D_at_webmail-stg-d02.sysops.aol.com>

Hi Matthias and other meteorite friends,

Matthias wrote, with reference to Winona and Camp Verde-

'- was something special. Couldn't that point to the fact that they
observed the meteorite falling? Any ideas about that?'

That really is a 1,000,000 dollar question for paleo-meteorite
collectors and their modern day counterparts ;]

Unless viejo Pendejo paleo-Indians saw Canyon Diablo fall and were
close enough to the event to realize what happened [the closeness IMO
is feasible imagining the Gran Teton bolide]; but far enough away to
survive, it would be hard to come up with a convincing story regarding
the 'Camp Verde' mass to have been a recorded witnessed fall for
Indians in the region ca. 50,000 years later if we are to believe that
upstart M.I.T. researcher who first suggested it was paired to Canyon
Diablo.

I guess Winona is another animal, though as to my knowledge and extent
of Google capability, don't know of and cannot find any studies that
have actually dated the Winona meteorite's terrestrial age. It would
seem to mirror the case of Glorieta Mountain which enjoys that
interesting Indian medicine man relationship also in the first half of
the last millenium.

These later two meteorites would seem to fall into this nasty
terrestrial dating abyss where they are too old for thermoluminescence
to yield palatable results and possibly, if we want to believe they are
orally recorded witnessed fa
lls in Indian tradition, too young to be
studied by carbon 14 dating techniques unambiguously.

So while I really am with you at heart to consider the possibility that
these were known as witnessed falls, there are too many other
explanations I could imagine that would seem equally plausible, when
faced with a lack of hard evidence. For example, I would suggest that
strange stones, especially heavy ones that were out of place - and I
bet some Indians were very good observational geologists given their
need to live off the land, could have been venerated just for being
different. Or perhaps no veneration at all is involved...I could
imagine a scenario in a community oriented culture that for whatever
reason, an rock could be perceived to be special or have value - and be
cached in hopes of the finder getting a monopoly on benefiting from
it's desirable properties. These cysts would seem to be excellent
hiding places to that effect - you know - so the governing council
didn't expropriate the object in the name of the nation, or something
like that.

The bandages or feather blankets, Mummy wrappings, etc., don't
necessarily imply veneration. Anyone with an iron meteorite and poorly
insulated house would probably want to wrap their iron in something
absorbant for protection, which is a practical alternate supposition.
Even most stony meteorites are well served when wrapped in an absorbant
and/or insulatin
g material. The Indians were probably primitive by our
standards in their knowledge of meteorites, but most Indian cultures
seem to have great appreciation for nature and they certainly weren't
sstupid. Here is a picture of Winona upon its 1928 discoveryin the
cyst in the floor-
http://www.daviddarling.info/images/Winona_meteorite.jpg

Not discounting the witnessed fall theory in the case of Winona, just
keeping an open mind for other possibilities besides natural bias to
want to see these Indians as having been bitten by the meteorite
collecting bug [and why not - this was true for other tribes that
recognized the utility of the materials]. I can imagine an alien
species coming to earth after our mutually assured destruction, and
finding how many of us collectors venerate meteorites, putting them in
special display cases and with silica gel and the like, and coming to
the conclusion that meteorite collectors venerated meteorites. Of
course, though not exactly in the same train of thought they would be
right ;]

Why Winona fell apart upon recovery after perhaps nearly 1000 years in
Indian custody seems to be worthy of beng one of the great reputed
events in meteoritics. Either we're missing some important piece of
the story [question mark], or perhaps the Indians really knew it
required a little more TLC than whatever nasty cleaning or stress it
was subjected to in by the archaeologist that recovered it.



Cheers and best wishes,
Doug







-----Original Message-----
From: Matthias B?rmann <majbaermann at web.de>
To: meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com; MexicoDoug <MexicoDoug at aim.com>
Sent: Mon, 7 Jul 2008 5:27 pm
Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] RFS Picture of the Day: Phil Morgan's
Flyer


Hi Doug, list members , -?
?
"'On the top of a mesa a few miles east of Camp Verde, George E. Dawson?
came upon a stone cyst in the corner of an ancient Indian dwelling.?
Instead of finding a child burial as he expected, he found a 61.5 kg?
metallic meteorite wrapped in a feather-cloth."?
?
As far as I know it was nearly the same with the Winona meteorite. I
was?
always moved by the fact that American Indian tribes such as the
Sinagua?
(which were related to the Anasazi I guess) buried a meteorite in a way
they?
did with children. Perhaps they considered the falling of a meteorite
to be?
an act of birth? Obviously they were sure that this stone - and Winona?
really doesn't look spectacular - was something special. Couldn't that
point?
to the fact that they observed the meteorite falling? Any ideas about
that??
?
Best regards,?
?
Matthias Baermann?
?
---- Original Message ----- From: <mexicodoug at aim.com>?
To: <Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com>?
Sent: Monday, July 07, 2008 11:56 PM?
Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] RFS Picture of=2
0the Day: Phil Morgan's
Flyer?
?
> One more important reference, V. Buchwald, 1975, V. 2, p. 399,?
>?
> 'On the top of a mesa a few miles east of Camp Verde, George E.
Dawson?
> came upon a stone cyst in the corner of an ancient Indian dwelling.?
> Instead of finding a child burial as he expected, he found a 61.5 kg?
> metallic meteorite wrapped in a feather-cloth. ref-Nininger and
Nininger?
> 1950 p. 106. Considerable pottery was found associated with the
burial by?
> which its age was determined as about 800 years. ref-Nininger 1952.
The?
> meteorite was found about 1915, about 33 km South of Sedona and 85 km?
> Southwest of Meteor Crater, in Yavapai County. The ancient Indian
cliff?
> dwellings, Montezuma Castle, are about 7 km North of the find. While
the?
> find was briefly reported by A.D. Nininger ref-1940. and photographed
by?
> Nininger and Nininger ref-1952., it was only analyzed lately by Moore
et.?
> al. ref-1968. and Wasson ref-1968. Wasson concluded on the basis of?
> Ga-Ge-Ir contents, which were similar withing analytical error to
Canyon?
> Diablo, that Camp Verde was a mass transported from the strewn field
of?
> Meteor Crater."?
>?
> Cheers?
>?
>?
> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] RFS Picture of the Day: Phil Morgan's
Flyer?
>?
> Hi Bernd and Listees, "A meteorite that was
 excavated in an ancient?
> Arizona ruin. It was found wrapped in a feather cloth and [enclosed
in] a?
> stone cyst."?
> brackets [] are mine to question whethe?
> r it was really 'on' or 'in'.?
> refs-?
> http://homepages.ihug.co.nz/~afs/may96_2.html?
> The Camp Verde, Arizona iron meteorite was found on an 800-year-old?
> Sinagua "altar," wrapped in a feather blanket and was probably
transported?
> from Meteor Crater approximately 100 km to the northeast.?
> and?
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meteorite?
> In 1915, a 135-pound iron meteorite was found in a Sinagua
(c.1100-1200?
> AD) burial cyst near Camp Verde, Arizona, respectfully wrapped in a?
> feather cloth. referenced to Nininger's 1972 Catch [sic] a Falling
Star'.?
> Best wishes Doug?
> -----Original Message----- > From: bernd.pauli at paulinet.de To:
Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com?
> Sent: Mon, 7 Jul 2008 3:16 pm Subject: [meteorite-list] RFS Picture
of the?
> Day: Phil Morgan's Flyer?
>?
> Mr and Mrs H.H. Nininger once wrote: "You will see these strange?
> meteorites?
> Anyone care to give answers to these 22 pieces of information???
Maybe one?
> answer per list member. Happy sleuthing!?
> Let me start with #1: "A meteorite that fell through a house roof in?
> Missouri during WWI"?
> Well, that's "Baxter" ... like list member Jim Baxter ;-) Hi Jim, how
are?

> you doin'??
> Baxter is an L6 chondrite of 611 grams that fell through the roof of
a?
> house in Stone (!) County, Missouri, on Jan 18, 1616.?
>?
> Cheers,?
> Bernd?
> ______________________________________________?
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>?
?
Received on Mon 07 Jul 2008 09:28:36 PM PDT