[meteorite-list] Pronouncing Willamette and other meteorite names

From: lebofsky at lpl.arizona.edu <lebofsky_at_meteoritecentral.com>
Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2008 20:37:44 -0700 (MST)
Message-ID: <53450.71.226.60.25.1209008264.squirrel_at_timber.lpl.arizona.edu>

Hi all:

Sounds like a new Meteorite magazine column to me!

Could be done alphabetically or by country (would need volunteers from the
countries involved [regional for USA?] or people who speak the language).

Anyone want to volunteer to do it/oversee it? Start it off? Anyone, anyone?

By the way, off line I got this suggestion (sort of) from Anne Black and
my question to her is:

There is a Gem and Mineral show the occurs every year during the summer,
in Eastern France, where a meteorite was seen to fall (over 500 years
ago). How is it pronounced? I bring this up since someone today mentioned
asking Anne how to pronounce French meteorites and, in Anne's room at the
Tucson show, I heard two different pronunciations of this show/meteorite
from two people who spoke with French accents! Yes Anne, you still have an
accent!

In this case, does it have to do with the fact that it is near a
German-speaking country?

Larry

Co-Editor, Meteorite magazine

On Wed, April 23, 2008 7:21 pm, Michael Murray wrote:
> Sorry if this a dumb suggestion but, I was just wondering what would
> be the chances of including an ongoing spelling/pronunciation feature on
> meteorite nomemclature in Meteorite each quarter, or a couple times a year
> possibly?
>
> Mike
>
>
>
> On Apr 23, 2008, at 5:24 PM, lebofsky at lpl.arizona.edu wrote:
>
>
>> Doug:
>>
>>
>> We gringos (those white guys who live on the streets with Spanish
>> names here in Tucson) probably would get it correct (though you might need
>> to warn us where the place is).
>>
>> Larry
>>
>>
>> On Wed, April 23, 2008 1:46 pm, mexicodoug at aim.com wrote:
>>
>>> Darren G. wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> "MexicoDoug, try this little experiment while in the US-- write down
>>> the word "Allende" on a piece of paper. Show it to every gringo you
>>> meet, ask them how to pronounce it.
>>>
>>> Hey Darren, OK. Those sly gr*ngos!!! I just did and tried.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> They pronounced:
>>> "All GIMEEE!!!!"
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> "Better yet, get the whitest looking guy you can find to ask
>>> for you."
>>>
>>> OK - He said:
>>> Me See-Ayyy-Eye", You GIMEE!!!
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> "I woud be shocked if anything more than a small minority of English
>>> speakers got it right."
>>>
>>> Not too shocked, just warmly stirred ;)
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Best wishes,
>>> Doug
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Darren Garrison <cynapse at charter.net>
>>> To: Meteorite List <Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com>
>>> Sent: Wed, 23 Apr 2008 11:16 am
>>> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Pronouncing Willamette and other
>>> meteorite names
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Wed, 23 Apr 2008 02:45:25 -0700, you wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> As for Allende, someone said there is nothing wrong
>>>> With "Anglicizing" a word....You would have a VERY
>>>> Difficult time living in So. CA - going to El Cajon (el ca hone)
>>>> And La Jolla (la hoy ya) etc. Even in LA, they pronounce
>>>> It "row DAY oh" Drive, not rodeo drive, as it was the Spanish
>>>> Name place originally.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> You can pick and choose names that keep their original pronounciation
>>> if you want. But you can also pick and choose names that have been
>>> Anglicized
>>> if you want. The point is, if a word LOOKS like it follows the
>>> spelling of a "traditional" English word-- unless you have evidence
>>> otherwise-- you will usually try to pronounce it as if it were a
>>> "traditional"
>>> English word
>>> (and the
>>> same goes for non-English speakers, of course-- if the word LOOKS to
>>> fit the conventions of your languge, I'll bet that, with no
>>> instruction otherwise, you'll try to pronounce it according to the
>>> conventions of your language). Your examples "El Cajon" and "La Jolla"
>>> look obviously Spanish and not
>>> English. But
>>> "Allende" looks like a perfectly cromulent English word-- you have,
>>> Allentown,
>>> PA, for example, not Ayantown, PA. So "Allende" just didn't
>>> trigger an alarm in my head to pronounce it differently-- I wasn't
>>> being contrary, it simply never occured to me.
>>>
>>> MexicoDoug, try this little experiment while in the US-- write
>>> down the word "Allende" on a piece of paper. Show it to every gringo
>>> you meet, ask them how to pronounce it. Better yet, get the whitest
>>> looking guy you can find to ask for you. I woud be shocked if anything
>>> more than a small minority of English speakers got it right.
>>>
>>> Also, another issue, I've never heard the large majority of all
>>> meteorite names (and, indeed, possibly the majority of all techinical
>>> scientific terms, species names, etc that are well known to me)
>>> pronounced aloud. Except for those who are professionals in the field
>>> and/or go to meteorite sales, I'd say that stands for most people who
>>> are hobbyists in obscure fields that are mostly accessed through books
>>> and the internet, without a local population of like-minded people to
>>> meet with. Back to
>>> Williamette, the first (and only) time I have
>>> ever heard that word spoken aloud was in that film Darrly Pitt had
>>> someone put together-- that guy was pronouncing it right, I thought he
>>> was a rube getting it wrong.
>>>
>>> Meteorites can come from anywhere in the world-- which means that you
>>> are potentially faced with knowing the pronounciation rules/ phonics
>>> for any language in the world-- does that assume that we should be
>>> assumed to know how all those other languages work when you just see
>>> the word in print? (And I shudder to think of a meteorite named in a
>>> Khoisan or
>>> similar language that strays profoundly from Indo-European phonics--
>>> "anyone have a partslice of
>>> clickpopgulp?")
>>>
>>>> The problem with "Anglicizing" a word is two fold:
>>>> 1) it assumes an ethnocentric approach to the word and
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> So what? If you get rid of all the words that have been adopted into
>>> and modified to make English, you'll have-- well, I guess you'll
>>> have nothing, English is such a mongrel. Would you rather have
>>> English
>>> more massively complicated with exceptions to spelling/pronounciation
>>> rules than the chaos that it already is? I've been reading and
>>> writing English
>>> for all my life, and I still have to look up spellings of words
>>> (including
>>> in this post) because of the mess that English conventions are.
>>> Pronouncing the names of all
>>> foreign cities and countries the same way the natives do in their
>>> language would take massive effort.
>>>
>>>> Anyway, of course, you can call your mother or father's sister
>>>> "ant" or "aunt" and people will understand.... But one is correct
>>>> and One is less so.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> Right-- "ant" is correct. Only losers pronounce the silent "u".
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> (Myself, I always wonder how the word "o-rang-utan" to most people is
>>> pronounced "arang-atang")
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>>
>>
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Received on Wed 23 Apr 2008 11:37:44 PM PDT