[meteorite-list] It was intuition ? OK ?

From: Martin Altmann <altmann_at_meteoritecentral.com>
Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2008 15:24:18 +0200
Message-ID: <003f01c89d69$ae9ab300$177f2a59_at_name86d88d87e2>

Hi Doug,

you forgot the basic point.
It's not about that Non-IMCA people, would be in any respect not honourable
people, nor about a separation in a club or cliquism, but while raging
against the system, you have to see, how people get in contact for their
first time with meteorites!

Do you know how sick and tired I am of telling to newcomers, sorry your
Nantan is no meteorite. Well, your Sikhote is called a "shrapnel" it has no
orientation, your NWA has desert varnish, not fusion crust, hmm I can't help
you, the restoration of your Campo slice would cost more, than you have paid
for it... and so on?

Doug, first of all your dialectic - dealers here, collectors there is wrong.
The utmost people which appear selling meteorites are collectors! They're
doing it for fun, to enlarge their collections, they are amateurs in the
meaning of the word (latin amare - to love), furthermore others who
frequently selling meteorites and which you would count to the dealers, do
it not for living, and finally the professionals they are rather an
exception, - and of course the professional dealers are almost all
collectors by their own.

That mixture you will find of course represented in the member structure of
IMCA too.

So. And listen, most collectors and of course most of the full-time dealers
feel a responsibility to maintain our hobby, to popularize it and to
generate new collectors. (Indeed some of the full-time dealers to a higher
extend as some collectors, they see it as a part of their profession, and of
course as a factor of their business).
So they are growing new collectors and guide them.
Man, in former times I had to spend 2/3 of my working time in coaching
beginners, in introducing rookies into our hobby and to explain them the
facets of meteorites, to recommend, what and where to buy - or in answering
question of people, who didn't know nothing about meteorites.
All independently on whether they intended to buy or not.
(and I'm glad and happy for the relief, that I can send them now to the new
fora in web, where their questions will be answered too).
Look, why does a dealer like Farmer, travelling all the time around,
organizing and selling fat museum chunks, does have tiny Gaos for a few
dollars in his assortment? Why do the Hupes, running around with planetary
fullslices, take the time, to cut and to polish hundreds of micromounts,
why do the Chladnis spend many weeks per year tinkering their Moon and Mars
boxes? Why does Eduardo create sets, with a booklet and a tiny meteorite.
And so on. Because they want to bring as many people as possible to that
fascinating hobby.

How do people come in contact with meteorites?
They do know nothing about them in beginning.
They watch something in TV, or they find a meteorite exhibited in their
planetarium, ect... and then they are going into the internet.

And there they hit a variety of meteorites and offers.
Doug - if they even don't know the "dealers" yet, how should it work, that
they know a collector? Especially when dealers are more present in web, then
most collectors?

No, firstly they hit "the market" in most cases, in finding meteorites
offered on ebay. A glorious mess.
They don't have any clues about meteorites, they can't discriminate yet,
which offer is serious, which offer is a wrong, which offer has an incorrect
description, which pieces are lousy and which are good. Nor do they know any
of the offerers.

And now we are at the decisive point.
Now the decision is felt, whether he ever will be a collector or whether he
will be lost for that field of collection for ever.

A dramatic event, he will buy his first meteorites!

What will he buy, Doug?
He has no experiences, he has no clues about meteorites, he doesn't know any
dealer nor collector yet, and he's not sure yet, whether he will like that
hobby or not.

He/She will buy the cheapest he can find.
He will buy:
Mekong-River-irons - ebay is full of that crap, offered by dealers from
Far-East and meanwhile from American mineral dealers as well.
He will buy Campo.
He will buy real Nantan.
He will buy, if he has a little more to spend, a Brahin.
He will buy, these auctions, which have almost no bids, because the offered
piece is a self-found stone from the garden.
He will buy from the starchasers-meteorites-sellers of the world a granite
as a Moon or a Mars.
He will buy a tektite, which is labelled as a meteorite.
He will buy a weathered unclassified NWA, which is looking like torn out
from the fillings of a road bed, but which is appraised in the auction as it
would be the Star of India.
He will buy from esoteric sellers Tibet stuff with no meteorite content.

That's it.
At home then, his Campo will rust, his Nantan will disintegrate, from his
Brahin the olivines will pop out, because nobody told him, how to store them
and that they are difficult to keep and often extreme rusters.
Do you think, Doug, that he ever will touch a meteorite again?

He will seek help, browsing in internet, addressing to a webpage of a
meteorite dealer or collector.
They will tell them, well it's well known, that these locales rust like
hell. Weren't you told about?
He will show his other purchases, and he will get the answer: Sorry, that is
a Mekong-magnetite and no meteorite, yah that star-chaser screwed you, it is
no Moon; no tektites are something different than meteorites, they are not
from space. Well yes, that's a true meteorite, but it has no fusion crust,
neither is it oriented, look I show you some pictures...

Do you think, Doug, he will carry on with meteorites, when he was burnt and
frustrated in that way?

And btw. if he doesn't know the responsible collectors and dealers,
but should buy at non-IMCA-members, how can he avoid to end at a Bob Evans
or a Chicago-Steve?

And now look - each member who joins IMCA has to sign a code of ethics. He
agrees to perform a proper business ethics, to care for the authenticity
ect.
This is already a inhibition threshold for those sellers, who give a .... on
their buyers, because why they should risk some trouble, if their crap is
selling also without IMCA-label? Plus those, who are aware, that they don't
know much about meteorites, let's say mineral dealers, having from time to
time an iron, esoteric sellers, or pendants and jewellery sellers, who might
have difficulties to recognize a true meteorite, won't feel the wish, to
join.
Well and such sellers, obviously having sold fakes, never would be accepted
by IMCA.

Secondly, any new member has to be recommended by two other members, which
are in a certain way obliged - or interested in, that their godchild doesn't
mess things up.

Thirdly: If a buyer of a stone, no matter whether he's a member or not, has
any troubles with an IMCA-member, he can address at anytime to IMCA, and
they will help to find a satisfying solution.
IMCA is a legal person, so in extreme cases, it can (and will) sue a member,
who had broken the code of ethics and refuses to acquit the damage.

Fourthly: Foul apples are always quickly expelled from IMCA.

I'm not a propagandist of IMCA, neither I'm horny to get a function there,
but what I can tell you from my daily work: IMCA is a BLESSING for our hobby
and our branch.

Doug, again, and good heavens! Collectors and dealers, who are not
IMCA-members, are of course also very honourable people and one can
excellently buy meteorites from them. A beginner soon will grow into the
meteorite scene and then he can buy of course also from non-IMCA-members,
but you have to see, that at the very start - and we have to care for
rookies to get a good start into our beloved field of collecting -
it simply DRASTICALLY REDUCES for them the risk to be burnt, if they buy at
the beginnig there, where they find an IMCA-label.

Really.
Martin









-----Urspr?ngliche Nachricht-----
Von: mexicodoug at aim.com [mailto:mexicodoug at aim.com]
Gesendet: Sonntag, 13. April 2008 10:21
An: altmann at meteorite-martin.de; Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com
Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] It was intuition ? OK ?

Martin A. wrote:

"PS: And if you don't know any dealers yet, buy strictly IMCA."

Hi Martin, Friends,

I strictly disagree. IMCA membership can't proactively guarantee
character as much as it would be nice to want to believe that. By the
time you would start a grievance process through the IMCA, you've
already lost and given up on meteorites.

My advice is, if you don't know any dealers, buy from a collector who
does very little dealing. That can be lots of fun too. A collector can
have infinite reserviors of patience and enthusiasm. A busy dealer can
be too worried about getting to bed in time before answering all of the
innocent email questions, to even write his friend or old customers
with important answers.

-or-

The money won't burn a hole in your pocket, either: so if you don't
know any dealers - get to know them first and you'll find the buying
experience much more fun. Make them educate you and reward them with
your business. An IMCA logo to a businessman is what a degree is to a
scientist: what he or she makes of it. Make everone work for your
money: you did. Anything else is disrespectful to all of those honest
people out there. BTW, the vast majority of the material is sourced
 from non-IMCA members, a fact that should be kept in mind by all. The
IMCA directors are pretty good about not insulting the non-IMCA list
members when it comes to discussing ethics. I think they realize the
limitations of a general interest group and the "policing" function is
not the strongest point for the IMCA. This situation is much too
complicated to caracature it that way.

The IMCA logo is not a Union Card. A dealer can sell one million
dollars and pays $20 for his logo. A collector can sell five cents,
and still pays the same, which may challenge the sense of equity for
some...

Best wishes and Great Health,
Doug





-----Original Message-----
From: Martin Altmann <altmann at meteorite-martin.de>
To: Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com
Sent: Sat, 12 Apr 2008 12:51 pm
Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] It was intuition ? OK ?



I know Jay,

but I can't explicitly write names here, I'm a dealer and some could
misunderstand it and think, that I would pursue a certain intention.
So I rather write about barbers and surgeons...

In fact one could express it also less complicate with the simple, but
nevertheless true words of my uncle Alex Seidel:

Know your dealer.

:-)
Martin

PS: And if you don't know any dealers yet, buy strictly IMCA.


-----Urspr?ngliche Nachricht-----
Von: meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com
[mailto:meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com] Im Auftrag von
Wendy
Piatek
Gesendet: Samstag, 12. April 2008 18:40
An: Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com
Cc: Martin Altmann
Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] It was intuition ? OK ?

Martin -- the problem they are all referring to is the questionable
practices of Bob Evans. I believe he has sold 5-6 different meteorites
(that

we know of) --that might be imposters--those being--

Zulu Queen---he stated he procured it from UCLA---on contact they
denied
this. It is all in IOM and Schwade
Bialystok
Plymouth
Claretin
Andover--he won't even say where he got it. Almost all in USNM and Jim
and
me. He does not have the pull to do exchanges with most major
institutions.
Ensisheim

Think of all the collectors who received Ensisheim on ebay from him and
it
is really most likely St. Severin. Either that or he has uncovered
another
stone!!!

There needs to be action done against this guy. He never responded to
my
inquiries on where he came up with these. And yet he has the nerve to
bring
up other suspected scammers on ebay. I hate hypocrites. I hate scammers.

My vote is to ostracize him until he comes clean. Kick him off the
list. Get

a website entitled " Suspicious Meteorites Sold By Bob Evans AKA
Maccers..."

.
Encourage all who have bought specimens from him to take him up on his
offer

and ask for their money back.

Since my email to the list several weeks ago which Bob never replied
either
publicly or privately I have had quite a few listers write with stories
of
his shady business practices. One lister in fact stated he has a 5K
judgemnt

against Bob. All these complaints need to be brought out in public and
perhaps the Illinois Attorney General notiified. Too many times scam
artists

of which he appears to be can continue to prosper due to everyone
remaining
silent.

I look forward to other input. I know my stance is quite intense but
there
is quite a bit at stake for my collection as well as this field. I
think the

lister who felt IMCA needs to get involved is right on as well. I look
forward to their input/comments.

Best,

Jay


----- Original Message -----
From: "Martin Altmann" <altmann at meteorite-martin.de>
To: <Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com>
Sent: Saturday, April 12, 2008 8:42 AM
Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] It was intuition ? OK ?


Hi too,

some thoughts...

Of course it would be desirable if a cut of a meteorite could be
tracked and
would be documented without gap back to the very day, when the chunk in
space desired to fall on Earth.

But I think with old falls that wish will always stay illusory.

In my eyes most attempts to track back a specimen to get a 100%
certainty
will lead in the utmost cases only to shift the problem back in time.

Indeed labels of a large and famous museum is regarded as untouchable
regalia of absolute authenticity,
but if we are strict: We know that the large collections were built,
aside
 from trades with other institutions, mainly by purchase and donations
from
private parties - and here we are laid back to the same problem.

Especially if we keep in mind, that that happened in those times, where
no
Meteoritical Society existed to care for a record of the tkws and
collected
specimens, and in times, where the possibilities of analyses were not
these
of today.
(And of course not different from today - in 19th centry in the focus of
science whas the research on the properties of the material itself and
not
its provenience).

If you check, you'll find many locales haunting the Catalougue, were the
original provenience is lost and where the location of their initial
find
are collections of museums and universities! Where did the famous
Lafayette
stem from? Slagheck's iron... and so on.
And today, I'm very sure, there are slumbering especially in smaller
universities, as meteorites are (still today) an exotic fringe of
classic
mineralogy, remarkable amounts of known historic falls. Orphans, having
left
only a label hanging around the neck like lost pieces of luggage in the
London airport. Nobody can't remember, wherefrom and when they were
acquired, those who did it, long passed away....

Of course it's commendable, that MetSoc or MetBase tried to capture the
tkws
as complete as possible - but it's only an attempt, it always has to be
incomplete and the figures of kgs and grams aren't carved in stone.

In fact those figures there are based only on collection catalogues and
or
publications of meteorite scientists. So regarding the historical finds
they
will be always deficient.
I mean you see it in these cases, which might be in your opinion not
that
tragic - with the mass irons like Gibeon, Sikhote-Alin, Canyon and so
on,
Where you still today will find the old estimations of Nininger, Krinov
and
so on - although really everyone knows, that many tons more were
recovered.
But also with modern falls - just take Chiang Khan, which we recently
had
here - the Catalogue is unnecessarily improper. I mean it's no secret
that
the geological survey of Thailand immediately found a few days after the
fall a big chunk, which is in the university of Bangkok - but the MetSoc
didn't noticed it, additionally the Catalogue lists a larger piece at
UCLA
and finally Oliver Alge's finds - he spent all in all a whole year in
the
strewnfield, receiving specimens from the locals, digging up a few by
himself - had hundreds of interviews with eyewitnesses, compared the
stones
with others from collections and institutes - so he did by far more
than any
scientist - but his finds never will find their way into the tkw, as he
has
no degree in geology or mineralogy hanging on the wall, so he can't
make an
scientific publication - but as Jeff told, MetSoc doesn't accept
anything
else than that as evidence.
Or take Kainsaz. Now we know all, that the Russian hunters found still
quite
some amounts until 1999. We know it, but the collectors in hundred years
from now?

And again, we're talking about falls from 100 or 200 years ago, when
such a
system of survey wasn't established - tracking back a specimen is fine,
but
we don't know with most falls the initial point. We don't know how many
stones felt, how many the locals took home, how many greedy dealers
acquired
like today and sold to private collectors and ended up in institutes.

Well and then to expect from dealers, that they should track back each
specimen they sold in a manner, which neither the museums, nor the
MetSoc
was and is able to do - is certainly a little bit much.
Let's ask Zelimir, how much time he spent for his collection of the
whereabouts of Ensisheim specimens and then let's ask the professional
dealers how much working time they spend already now, to supply the
collectors and institutes with always new old and new meteorites.

And on the other hand it would be a matter of price.
Theoretically, only theoretically, a dealer could let throw each
historical
specimen into a microprobe and could do the same with a specimen in a
famous
museums collection and could compare the values, to improve the
authenticity, but whether the collector would pay then the costs, if a
100
or 200$ piece would cost then 1000$, I doubt.

The dealers have to rate the provenience and to compare with other
specimens, they have a lot to loose.
Buying meteorites is to a certain degree a matter of trust, from the
side of
the collectors.
>From side of the dealer it is a matter of his reputation.

If this isn't sufficient for a collector, then he simply shouldn't buy
any
historic specimens, then he should collect desert meteorites, where the
provenance is of less than secondary importance and the value is
determined
solely by the material itself.

Meteorite collecting is different from stamp collecting, where you have
a
catalogue, where all stamps are depicted, and where you have the exact
numbers, how many of each were issued.

And these endless ebay-discussions are in my eyes redundant.
There are dealers and collectors selling with excellent names and they
worked hard for those good names,
but aside from them: In general it is so silly to expect to get on the
flea-market without any risk an authentic Picasso or D?rer - and that
for a
few bucks.

As always only thoughts.....
Martin






-----Urspr?ngliche Nachricht-----
Von: meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com
[mailto:meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com] Im Auftrag von Mark
Grossman
Gesendet: Samstag, 12. April 2008 06:36
An: Dark Matter; Mike Bandli
Cc: Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com
Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] It was intuition ? OK ?

Martin, Mike and all,

I think you bring out an important point. You mentioned that you
contacted
the Humboldt Museum to check on the provenance of a sample.

I have also contacted various museums and dealers in other countries to
check on the provenance of samples.

A seller can provide a potential buyer with information regarding the
origin
of a specific sample, but unfortunately that doesn't necessarily carry
any
more weight than saying "This meteorite is guaranteed to be authentic".

In the past, I have received very specific information about the
provenance
of a historic specimen only to find out that the information could not
be
verified by the party who reportedly supplied the specimen.

Mark Grossman


----- Original Message -----
From: "Dark Matter" <freequarks at gmail.com>
To: "Mike Bandli" <fuzzfoot at comcast.net>
Cc: <Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com>
Sent: Friday, April 11, 2008 11:31 PM
Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] It was intuition ? OK ?


> Hi Mike and all,
>
> I too am curious about some of the rare meteorites I see advertised on
> ebay, and I look forward to reading something that demonstrates the
> authenticity on these historic piece beyond the somewhat unnerving
> statement that "This meteorite is guaranteed to be authentic or your
> money back !!"
>
> Over the years I have acquired a sizable portion of a world-class
> collection among other special pieces and have above average knowledge
> of material distribution, and of course, a vested interest in
> preserving the reputation of the historic and valuable specimens.
>
> For example, some recent ebay offerings included Bialystok and
> Andover, two historic falls of extremely low distribution. Here are
> the auction links.
>
>
http://cgi.ebay.com/Bialystok-Meteorite-Rare-Historic-Howardite-from-Poland_
W0QQitemZ250229710427QQcmdZViewItem?hash=item250229710427
>
>
http://cgi.ebay.com/Andover-Maine-Meteorite-Witnessed-Fall_W0QQitemZ25022971
1253QQcmdZViewItem?hash=item250229711253
>
> Representatives of both these localities are in my collection and I
> have written about them in my Accretion Desk articles. Here are some
> pictures:
>
> http://www.meteorite-times.com/Back_Links/2005/November/andover.jpg
>
> http://www.meteorite-times.com/Back_Links/2005/November/bailystok.jpg
>
>
http://www.meteorite-times.com/Back_Links/2005/November/bailystok_number.jpg
>
> Although I have not chased down all the total weight of the pieces of
> Bailystok distributed over time, I have personally gone so far as to
> contact the Humboldt museum (the original source of my piece and its
> number) shed light on the distribution of this extremely rare and
> historic howardite. Therefore, the appearance of half a gram of
> Bailystok on ebay was somewhat extraordinary, only to be outdone by
> its low selling price.
>
> Andover is another matter. Its distribution is greater, but still few
> have comparison. At $425/g for an L6, I hope there is more than an
> Nininger quote to back up its provenience.
>
> Other thoughts?
>
> Martin
>
>
>
> On Fri, Apr 11, 2008 at 8:04 PM, Mike Bandli <fuzzfoot at comcast.net>
wrote:
> > Bob,
> >
> > I'm sure there are a couple people on the list that benefit from
your
eBay
> > authenticity posts, but maybe you could set that time aside for
doing a
> > little research as to where your 'Zulu Queen' meteorite really came
from (if
> > it really is Zulu Queen). No sense it in pointing out other
people's
> > authenticity issues if you can't back up your own.
> >
> > Still waiting for an answer (the truth).
> >
> > Kind regards,
> >
> > Mike Bandli
> >
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com
> > [mailto:meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com] On Behalf Of
Bob
Evans
> > Sent: Friday, April 11, 2008 3:47 PM
> > To: Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com
> >
> > Subject: [meteorite-list] It was intuition ? OK ?
> >
> >
> >
> > I guess it amuses me when I get a response from some idiot selling
junk
as
> > meteorites on ebay
> >
> > Case in Point :
> >
http://cgi.ebay.com/meteorites-and-collectables_W0QQitemZ110242519960QQihZ00
> > 1QQcategoryZ3224QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
> >
> > Response to my inquiry regarding authenticity :
> >
> > Dear maccers531,
> >
> > " your not going to like this but its intuition ive been studying
them
for
> > awhile now and i know what im doing because also when i check
certain
areas
> > i found stuff at i go back later and ive recovered what ever else
new
fell
> > around they are planetary and ill probably be told no its not real
but
i
> > know they are and if you do not like them send them back for a full
refund
> > and also the magnet the look the fusion lets talk "
> >
> >
> > - deazombie
> >
> > Duh !
> >
> > Seems like all these people selling fakes one ebay share the
inability
to
> > spell correctly and use proper grammar.
> >
> > BE
> >
> > ______________________________________________
> > http://www.meteoritecentral.com
> > Meteorite-list mailing list
> > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com
> > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
> >
> >
> > ______________________________________________
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> >
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Received on Sun 13 Apr 2008 09:24:18 AM PDT