[meteorite-list] It was intuition ? OK ?

From: AL Mitterling <almitt_at_meteoritecentral.com>
Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2008 13:35:39 -0400
Message-ID: <4800F2EB.2030001_at_kconline.com>

Greetings List Members,

On June 24th 2004 there were some claims made against the person in
question. Apparently there was a lawsuit against this seller. I have
stayed clear of him ever since, though I never dealt with him. I suggest
people look up the archives and do their own reading and decide for
themselves. It may be the issue was resolved but I guess my feeling is
how it got to that point in the first place. Best!

--AL Mitterling

 Wendy Piatek wrote:

> Martin -- the problem they are all referring to is the questionable
> practices of Bob Evans. I believe he has sold 5-6 different meteorites
> (that we know of) --that might be imposters--those being--
>
> Zulu Queen---he stated he procured it from UCLA---on contact they
> denied this. It is all in IOM and Schwade
> Bialystok
> Plymouth
> Claretin
> Andover--he won't even say where he got it. Almost all in USNM and Jim
> and me. He does not have the pull to do exchanges with most major
> institutions.
> Ensisheim
>
> Think of all the collectors who received Ensisheim on ebay from him
> and it is really most likely St. Severin. Either that or he has
> uncovered another stone!!!
>
> There needs to be action done against this guy. He never responded to
> my inquiries on where he came up with these. And yet he has the nerve
> to bring up other suspected scammers on ebay. I hate hypocrites. I
> hate scammers.
>
> My vote is to ostracize him until he comes clean. Kick him off the
> list. Get a website entitled " Suspicious Meteorites Sold By Bob Evans
> AKA Maccers..." .
> Encourage all who have bought specimens from him to take him up on his
> offer and ask for their money back.
>
> Since my email to the list several weeks ago which Bob never replied
> either publicly or privately I have had quite a few listers write with
> stories of his shady business practices. One lister in fact stated he
> has a 5K judgemnt against Bob. All these complaints need to be brought
> out in public and perhaps the Illinois Attorney General notiified. Too
> many times scam artists of which he appears to be can continue to
> prosper due to everyone remaining silent.
>
> I look forward to other input. I know my stance is quite intense but
> there is quite a bit at stake for my collection as well as this field.
> I think the lister who felt IMCA needs to get involved is right on as
> well. I look forward to their input/comments.
>
> Best,
>
> Jay
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Martin Altmann"
> <altmann at meteorite-martin.de>
> To: <Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com>
> Sent: Saturday, April 12, 2008 8:42 AM
> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] It was intuition ? OK ?
>
>
> Hi too,
>
> some thoughts...
>
> Of course it would be desirable if a cut of a meteorite could be
> tracked and
> would be documented without gap back to the very day, when the chunk in
> space desired to fall on Earth.
>
> But I think with old falls that wish will always stay illusory.
>
> In my eyes most attempts to track back a specimen to get a 100% certainty
> will lead in the utmost cases only to shift the problem back in time.
>
> Indeed labels of a large and famous museum is regarded as untouchable
> regalia of absolute authenticity,
> but if we are strict: We know that the large collections were built,
> aside
> from trades with other institutions, mainly by purchase and donations
> from
> private parties - and here we are laid back to the same problem.
>
> Especially if we keep in mind, that that happened in those times,
> where no
> Meteoritical Society existed to care for a record of the tkws and
> collected
> specimens, and in times, where the possibilities of analyses were not
> these
> of today.
> (And of course not different from today - in 19th centry in the focus of
> science whas the research on the properties of the material itself and
> not
> its provenience).
>
> If you check, you'll find many locales haunting the Catalougue, were the
> original provenience is lost and where the location of their initial find
> are collections of museums and universities! Where did the famous
> Lafayette
> stem from? Slagheck's iron... and so on.
> And today, I'm very sure, there are slumbering especially in smaller
> universities, as meteorites are (still today) an exotic fringe of classic
> mineralogy, remarkable amounts of known historic falls. Orphans,
> having left
> only a label hanging around the neck like lost pieces of luggage in the
> London airport. Nobody can't remember, wherefrom and when they were
> acquired, those who did it, long passed away....
>
> Of course it's commendable, that MetSoc or MetBase tried to capture
> the tkws
> as complete as possible - but it's only an attempt, it always has to be
> incomplete and the figures of kgs and grams aren't carved in stone.
>
> In fact those figures there are based only on collection catalogues
> and or
> publications of meteorite scientists. So regarding the historical
> finds they
> will be always deficient.
> I mean you see it in these cases, which might be in your opinion not that
> tragic - with the mass irons like Gibeon, Sikhote-Alin, Canyon and so on,
> Where you still today will find the old estimations of Nininger,
> Krinov and
> so on - although really everyone knows, that many tons more were
> recovered.
> But also with modern falls - just take Chiang Khan, which we recently had
> here - the Catalogue is unnecessarily improper. I mean it's no secret
> that
> the geological survey of Thailand immediately found a few days after the
> fall a big chunk, which is in the university of Bangkok - but the MetSoc
> didn't noticed it, additionally the Catalogue lists a larger piece at
> UCLA
> and finally Oliver Alge's finds - he spent all in all a whole year in the
> strewnfield, receiving specimens from the locals, digging up a few by
> himself - had hundreds of interviews with eyewitnesses, compared the
> stones
> with others from collections and institutes - so he did by far more
> than any
> scientist - but his finds never will find their way into the tkw, as
> he has
> no degree in geology or mineralogy hanging on the wall, so he can't
> make an
> scientific publication - but as Jeff told, MetSoc doesn't accept anything
> else than that as evidence.
> Or take Kainsaz. Now we know all, that the Russian hunters found still
> quite
> some amounts until 1999. We know it, but the collectors in hundred years
> from now?
>
> And again, we're talking about falls from 100 or 200 years ago, when
> such a
> system of survey wasn't established - tracking back a specimen is
> fine, but
> we don't know with most falls the initial point. We don't know how many
> stones felt, how many the locals took home, how many greedy dealers
> acquired
> like today and sold to private collectors and ended up in institutes.
>
> Well and then to expect from dealers, that they should track back each
> specimen they sold in a manner, which neither the museums, nor the MetSoc
> was and is able to do - is certainly a little bit much.
> Let's ask Zelimir, how much time he spent for his collection of the
> whereabouts of Ensisheim specimens and then let's ask the professional
> dealers how much working time they spend already now, to supply the
> collectors and institutes with always new old and new meteorites.
>
> And on the other hand it would be a matter of price.
> Theoretically, only theoretically, a dealer could let throw each
> historical
> specimen into a microprobe and could do the same with a specimen in a
> famous
> museums collection and could compare the values, to improve the
> authenticity, but whether the collector would pay then the costs, if a
> 100
> or 200$ piece would cost then 1000$, I doubt.
>
> The dealers have to rate the provenience and to compare with other
> specimens, they have a lot to loose.
> Buying meteorites is to a certain degree a matter of trust, from the
> side of
> the collectors.
>
>> From side of the dealer it is a matter of his reputation.
>
>
> If this isn't sufficient for a collector, then he simply shouldn't buy
> any
> historic specimens, then he should collect desert meteorites, where the
> provenance is of less than secondary importance and the value is
> determined
> solely by the material itself.
>
> Meteorite collecting is different from stamp collecting, where you have a
> catalogue, where all stamps are depicted, and where you have the exact
> numbers, how many of each were issued.
>
> And these endless ebay-discussions are in my eyes redundant.
> There are dealers and collectors selling with excellent names and they
> worked hard for those good names,
> but aside from them: In general it is so silly to expect to get on the
> flea-market without any risk an authentic Picasso or D?rer - and that
> for a
> few bucks.
>
> As always only thoughts.....
> Martin
>
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Urspr?ngliche Nachricht-----
> Von: meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com
> [mailto:meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com] Im Auftrag von Mark
> Grossman
> Gesendet: Samstag, 12. April 2008 06:36
> An: Dark Matter; Mike Bandli
> Cc: Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com
> Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] It was intuition ? OK ?
>
> Martin, Mike and all,
>
> I think you bring out an important point. You mentioned that you
> contacted
> the Humboldt Museum to check on the provenance of a sample.
>
> I have also contacted various museums and dealers in other countries to
> check on the provenance of samples.
>
> A seller can provide a potential buyer with information regarding the
> origin
> of a specific sample, but unfortunately that doesn't necessarily carry
> any
> more weight than saying "This meteorite is guaranteed to be authentic".
>
> In the past, I have received very specific information about the
> provenance
> of a historic specimen only to find out that the information could not be
> verified by the party who reportedly supplied the specimen.
>
> Mark Grossman
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dark Matter" <freequarks at gmail.com>
> To: "Mike Bandli" <fuzzfoot at comcast.net>
> Cc: <Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com>
> Sent: Friday, April 11, 2008 11:31 PM
> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] It was intuition ? OK ?
>
>
>> Hi Mike and all,
>>
>> I too am curious about some of the rare meteorites I see advertised on
>> ebay, and I look forward to reading something that demonstrates the
>> authenticity on these historic piece beyond the somewhat unnerving
>> statement that "This meteorite is guaranteed to be authentic or your
>> money back !!"
>>
>> Over the years I have acquired a sizable portion of a world-class
>> collection among other special pieces and have above average knowledge
>> of material distribution, and of course, a vested interest in
>> preserving the reputation of the historic and valuable specimens.
>>
>> For example, some recent ebay offerings included Bialystok and
>> Andover, two historic falls of extremely low distribution. Here are
>> the auction links.
>>
>>
> http://cgi.ebay.com/Bialystok-Meteorite-Rare-Historic-Howardite-from-Poland_
>
> W0QQitemZ250229710427QQcmdZViewItem?hash=item250229710427
>
>>
>>
> http://cgi.ebay.com/Andover-Maine-Meteorite-Witnessed-Fall_W0QQitemZ25022971
>
> 1253QQcmdZViewItem?hash=item250229711253
>
>>
>> Representatives of both these localities are in my collection and I
>> have written about them in my Accretion Desk articles. Here are some
>> pictures:
>>
>> http://www.meteorite-times.com/Back_Links/2005/November/andover.jpg
>>
>> http://www.meteorite-times.com/Back_Links/2005/November/bailystok.jpg
>>
>>
> http://www.meteorite-times.com/Back_Links/2005/November/bailystok_number.jpg
>
>
>>
>> Although I have not chased down all the total weight of the pieces of
>> Bailystok distributed over time, I have personally gone so far as to
>> contact the Humboldt museum (the original source of my piece and its
>> number) shed light on the distribution of this extremely rare and
>> historic howardite. Therefore, the appearance of half a gram of
>> Bailystok on ebay was somewhat extraordinary, only to be outdone by
>> its low selling price.
>>
>> Andover is another matter. Its distribution is greater, but still few
>> have comparison. At $425/g for an L6, I hope there is more than an
>> Nininger quote to back up its provenience.
>>
>> Other thoughts?
>>
>> Martin
>>
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Apr 11, 2008 at 8:04 PM, Mike Bandli <fuzzfoot at comcast.net>
>> wrote:
>> > Bob,
>> >
>> > I'm sure there are a couple people on the list that benefit from your
>
> eBay
>
>> > authenticity posts, but maybe you could set that time aside for
>> doing a
>> > little research as to where your 'Zulu Queen' meteorite really came
>
> from (if
>
>> > it really is Zulu Queen). No sense it in pointing out other people's
>> > authenticity issues if you can't back up your own.
>> >
>> > Still waiting for an answer (the truth).
>> >
>> > Kind regards,
>> >
>> > Mike Bandli
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > -----Original Message-----
>> > From: meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com
>> > [mailto:meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com] On Behalf Of Bob
>
> Evans
>
>> > Sent: Friday, April 11, 2008 3:47 PM
>> > To: Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com
>> >
>> > Subject: [meteorite-list] It was intuition ? OK ?
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > I guess it amuses me when I get a response from some idiot selling
>> junk
>
> as
>
>> > meteorites on ebay
>> >
>> > Case in Point :
>> >
>
> http://cgi.ebay.com/meteorites-and-collectables_W0QQitemZ110242519960QQihZ00
>
>
>> > 1QQcategoryZ3224QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
>> >
>> > Response to my inquiry regarding authenticity :
>> >
>> > Dear maccers531,
>> >
>> > " your not going to like this but its intuition ive been studying
>> them
>
> for
>
>> > awhile now and i know what im doing because also when i check certain
>
> areas
>
>> > i found stuff at i go back later and ive recovered what ever else new
>
> fell
>
>> > around they are planetary and ill probably be told no its not real
>> but
>
> i
>
>> > know they are and if you do not like them send them back for a full
>
> refund
>
>> > and also the magnet the look the fusion lets talk "
>> >
>> >
>> > - deazombie
>> >
>> > Duh !
>> >
>> > Seems like all these people selling fakes one ebay share the
>> inability
>
> to
>
>> > spell correctly and use proper grammar.
>> >
>> > BE
>> >
>> > ______________________________________________
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>> >
>> >
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Received on Sat 12 Apr 2008 01:35:39 PM PDT