[meteorite-list] It was intuition ? OK ?

From: Mike Miller <meteoritefinder_at_meteoritecentral.com>
Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2008 10:32:29 -0700
Message-ID: <468bf6050804121032q38b40288ga5ed59d015ed7102_at_mail.gmail.com>

Hi Jay and all, I am not sure where this all started or where it will
end but I think Jay has brought up a slightly different issue here.
Let me say up front I do not know about Zulu Queen or any of these
other rare meteorite in question. I do know how I feel about knowingly
allowing a person of VERY questionable character to be a part of our
community. It is almost like we are taking part in the charade if we
knowing allow a shady Charterer to be part of this list. Now I am not
speaking of any person in particular, because I have no personal
knowledge of any of the dealings in question here. I am simply
responding to the whole idea if there is such a person amongst us, the
very least we can do is ban them from the list and I hope we can take
much more aggressive action to either slow down the shady deals or end
them if that is possible.

On Sat, Apr 12, 2008 at 9:40 AM, Wendy Piatek <wpiatek at indy.rr.com> wrote:
> Martin -- the problem they are all referring to is the questionable
> practices of Bob Evans. I believe he has sold 5-6 different meteorites (that
> we know of) --that might be imposters--those being--
>
> Zulu Queen---he stated he procured it from UCLA---on contact they denied
> this. It is all in IOM and Schwade
> Bialystok
> Plymouth
> Claretin
> Andover--he won't even say where he got it. Almost all in USNM and Jim and
> me. He does not have the pull to do exchanges with most major institutions.
> Ensisheim
>
> Think of all the collectors who received Ensisheim on ebay from him and it
> is really most likely St. Severin. Either that or he has uncovered another
> stone!!!
>
> There needs to be action done against this guy. He never responded to my
> inquiries on where he came up with these. And yet he has the nerve to bring
> up other suspected scammers on ebay. I hate hypocrites. I hate scammers.
>
> My vote is to ostracize him until he comes clean. Kick him off the list. Get
> a website entitled " Suspicious Meteorites Sold By Bob Evans AKA Maccers..."
> .
> Encourage all who have bought specimens from him to take him up on his offer
> and ask for their money back.
>
> Since my email to the list several weeks ago which Bob never replied either
> publicly or privately I have had quite a few listers write with stories of
> his shady business practices. One lister in fact stated he has a 5K judgemnt
> against Bob. All these complaints need to be brought out in public and
> perhaps the Illinois Attorney General notiified. Too many times scam artists
> of which he appears to be can continue to prosper due to everyone remaining
> silent.
>
> I look forward to other input. I know my stance is quite intense but there
> is quite a bit at stake for my collection as well as this field. I think the
> lister who felt IMCA needs to get involved is right on as well. I look
> forward to their input/comments.
>
> Best,
>
> Jay
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Martin Altmann"
> <altmann at meteorite-martin.de>
> To: <Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com>
> Sent: Saturday, April 12, 2008 8:42 AM
> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] It was intuition ? OK ?
>
>
> Hi too,
>
> some thoughts...
>
> Of course it would be desirable if a cut of a meteorite could be tracked and
> would be documented without gap back to the very day, when the chunk in
> space desired to fall on Earth.
>
> But I think with old falls that wish will always stay illusory.
>
> In my eyes most attempts to track back a specimen to get a 100% certainty
> will lead in the utmost cases only to shift the problem back in time.
>
> Indeed labels of a large and famous museum is regarded as untouchable
> regalia of absolute authenticity,
> but if we are strict: We know that the large collections were built, aside
> from trades with other institutions, mainly by purchase and donations from
> private parties - and here we are laid back to the same problem.
>
> Especially if we keep in mind, that that happened in those times, where no
> Meteoritical Society existed to care for a record of the tkws and collected
> specimens, and in times, where the possibilities of analyses were not these
> of today.
> (And of course not different from today - in 19th centry in the focus of
> science whas the research on the properties of the material itself and not
> its provenience).
>
> If you check, you'll find many locales haunting the Catalougue, were the
> original provenience is lost and where the location of their initial find
> are collections of museums and universities! Where did the famous Lafayette
> stem from? Slagheck's iron... and so on.
> And today, I'm very sure, there are slumbering especially in smaller
> universities, as meteorites are (still today) an exotic fringe of classic
> mineralogy, remarkable amounts of known historic falls. Orphans, having left
> only a label hanging around the neck like lost pieces of luggage in the
> London airport. Nobody can't remember, wherefrom and when they were
> acquired, those who did it, long passed away....
>
> Of course it's commendable, that MetSoc or MetBase tried to capture the tkws
> as complete as possible - but it's only an attempt, it always has to be
> incomplete and the figures of kgs and grams aren't carved in stone.
>
> In fact those figures there are based only on collection catalogues and or
> publications of meteorite scientists. So regarding the historical finds they
> will be always deficient.
> I mean you see it in these cases, which might be in your opinion not that
> tragic - with the mass irons like Gibeon, Sikhote-Alin, Canyon and so on,
> Where you still today will find the old estimations of Nininger, Krinov and
> so on - although really everyone knows, that many tons more were recovered.
> But also with modern falls - just take Chiang Khan, which we recently had
> here - the Catalogue is unnecessarily improper. I mean it's no secret that
> the geological survey of Thailand immediately found a few days after the
> fall a big chunk, which is in the university of Bangkok - but the MetSoc
> didn't noticed it, additionally the Catalogue lists a larger piece at UCLA
> and finally Oliver Alge's finds - he spent all in all a whole year in the
> strewnfield, receiving specimens from the locals, digging up a few by
> himself - had hundreds of interviews with eyewitnesses, compared the stones
> with others from collections and institutes - so he did by far more than any
> scientist - but his finds never will find their way into the tkw, as he has
> no degree in geology or mineralogy hanging on the wall, so he can't make an
> scientific publication - but as Jeff told, MetSoc doesn't accept anything
> else than that as evidence.
> Or take Kainsaz. Now we know all, that the Russian hunters found still quite
> some amounts until 1999. We know it, but the collectors in hundred years
> from now?
>
> And again, we're talking about falls from 100 or 200 years ago, when such a
> system of survey wasn't established - tracking back a specimen is fine, but
> we don't know with most falls the initial point. We don't know how many
> stones felt, how many the locals took home, how many greedy dealers acquired
> like today and sold to private collectors and ended up in institutes.
>
> Well and then to expect from dealers, that they should track back each
> specimen they sold in a manner, which neither the museums, nor the MetSoc
> was and is able to do - is certainly a little bit much.
> Let's ask Zelimir, how much time he spent for his collection of the
> whereabouts of Ensisheim specimens and then let's ask the professional
> dealers how much working time they spend already now, to supply the
> collectors and institutes with always new old and new meteorites.
>
> And on the other hand it would be a matter of price.
> Theoretically, only theoretically, a dealer could let throw each historical
> specimen into a microprobe and could do the same with a specimen in a famous
> museums collection and could compare the values, to improve the
> authenticity, but whether the collector would pay then the costs, if a 100
> or 200$ piece would cost then 1000$, I doubt.
>
> The dealers have to rate the provenience and to compare with other
> specimens, they have a lot to loose.
> Buying meteorites is to a certain degree a matter of trust, from the side of
> the collectors.
> > From side of the dealer it is a matter of his reputation.
> >
>
> If this isn't sufficient for a collector, then he simply shouldn't buy any
> historic specimens, then he should collect desert meteorites, where the
> provenance is of less than secondary importance and the value is determined
> solely by the material itself.
>
> Meteorite collecting is different from stamp collecting, where you have a
> catalogue, where all stamps are depicted, and where you have the exact
> numbers, how many of each were issued.
>
> And these endless ebay-discussions are in my eyes redundant.
> There are dealers and collectors selling with excellent names and they
> worked hard for those good names,
> but aside from them: In general it is so silly to expect to get on the
> flea-market without any risk an authentic Picasso or D?rer - and that for a
> few bucks.
>
> As always only thoughts.....
> Martin
>
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Urspr?ngliche Nachricht-----
> Von: meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com
> [mailto:meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com] Im Auftrag von Mark
> Grossman
> Gesendet: Samstag, 12. April 2008 06:36
> An: Dark Matter; Mike Bandli
> Cc: Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com
> Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] It was intuition ? OK ?
>
> Martin, Mike and all,
>
> I think you bring out an important point. You mentioned that you contacted
> the Humboldt Museum to check on the provenance of a sample.
>
> I have also contacted various museums and dealers in other countries to
> check on the provenance of samples.
>
> A seller can provide a potential buyer with information regarding the origin
> of a specific sample, but unfortunately that doesn't necessarily carry any
> more weight than saying "This meteorite is guaranteed to be authentic".
>
> In the past, I have received very specific information about the provenance
> of a historic specimen only to find out that the information could not be
> verified by the party who reportedly supplied the specimen.
>
> Mark Grossman
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dark Matter" <freequarks at gmail.com>
> To: "Mike Bandli" <fuzzfoot at comcast.net>
> Cc: <Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com>
> Sent: Friday, April 11, 2008 11:31 PM
> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] It was intuition ? OK ?
>
>
> > Hi Mike and all,
> >
> > I too am curious about some of the rare meteorites I see advertised on
> > ebay, and I look forward to reading something that demonstrates the
> > authenticity on these historic piece beyond the somewhat unnerving
> > statement that "This meteorite is guaranteed to be authentic or your
> > money back !!"
> >
> > Over the years I have acquired a sizable portion of a world-class
> > collection among other special pieces and have above average knowledge
> > of material distribution, and of course, a vested interest in
> > preserving the reputation of the historic and valuable specimens.
> >
> > For example, some recent ebay offerings included Bialystok and
> > Andover, two historic falls of extremely low distribution. Here are
> > the auction links.
> >
> >
> >
> http://cgi.ebay.com/Bialystok-Meteorite-Rare-Historic-Howardite-from-Poland_
> W0QQitemZ250229710427QQcmdZViewItem?hash=item250229710427
> >
> >
> >
> http://cgi.ebay.com/Andover-Maine-Meteorite-Witnessed-Fall_W0QQitemZ25022971
> 1253QQcmdZViewItem?hash=item250229711253
> >
> > Representatives of both these localities are in my collection and I
> > have written about them in my Accretion Desk articles. Here are some
> > pictures:
> >
> > http://www.meteorite-times.com/Back_Links/2005/November/andover.jpg
> >
> > http://www.meteorite-times.com/Back_Links/2005/November/bailystok.jpg
> >
> >
> >
> http://www.meteorite-times.com/Back_Links/2005/November/bailystok_number.jpg
> >
> > Although I have not chased down all the total weight of the pieces of
> > Bailystok distributed over time, I have personally gone so far as to
> > contact the Humboldt museum (the original source of my piece and its
> > number) shed light on the distribution of this extremely rare and
> > historic howardite. Therefore, the appearance of half a gram of
> > Bailystok on ebay was somewhat extraordinary, only to be outdone by
> > its low selling price.
> >
> > Andover is another matter. Its distribution is greater, but still few
> > have comparison. At $425/g for an L6, I hope there is more than an
> > Nininger quote to back up its provenience.
> >
> > Other thoughts?
> >
> > Martin
> >
> >
> >
> > On Fri, Apr 11, 2008 at 8:04 PM, Mike Bandli <fuzzfoot at comcast.net> wrote:
> > > Bob,
> > >
> > > I'm sure there are a couple people on the list that benefit from your
> >
> eBay
> > > authenticity posts, but maybe you could set that time aside for doing a
> > > little research as to where your 'Zulu Queen' meteorite really came
> >
> from (if
> > > it really is Zulu Queen). No sense it in pointing out other people's
> > > authenticity issues if you can't back up your own.
> > >
> > > Still waiting for an answer (the truth).
> > >
> > > Kind regards,
> > >
> > > Mike Bandli
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com
> > > [mailto:meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com] On Behalf Of Bob
> >
> Evans
> > > Sent: Friday, April 11, 2008 3:47 PM
> > > To: Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com
> > >
> > > Subject: [meteorite-list] It was intuition ? OK ?
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > I guess it amuses me when I get a response from some idiot selling junk
> >
> as
> > > meteorites on ebay
> > >
> > > Case in Point :
> > >
> >
> http://cgi.ebay.com/meteorites-and-collectables_W0QQitemZ110242519960QQihZ00
> > > 1QQcategoryZ3224QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
> > >
> > > Response to my inquiry regarding authenticity :
> > >
> > > Dear maccers531,
> > >
> > > " your not going to like this but its intuition ive been studying them
> >
> for
> > > awhile now and i know what im doing because also when i check certain
> >
> areas
> > > i found stuff at i go back later and ive recovered what ever else new
> >
> fell
> > > around they are planetary and ill probably be told no its not real but
> >
> i
> > > know they are and if you do not like them send them back for a full
> >
> refund
> > > and also the magnet the look the fusion lets talk "
> > >
> > >
> > > - deazombie
> > >
> > > Duh !
> > >
> > > Seems like all these people selling fakes one ebay share the inability
> >
> to
> > > spell correctly and use proper grammar.
> > >
> > > BE
> > >
> > > ______________________________________________
> > > http://www.meteoritecentral.com
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> > >
> > >
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> > >
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> >
> >
>
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-- 
Mike Miller 230 Greenway Dr. Kingman Az 86401
www.meteoritefinder.com
 928-753-6825

Received on Sat 12 Apr 2008 01:32:29 PM PDT