[meteorite-list] Erwin Rivera Carancas Recognition -Suggestion forMike "Tiger Man" Farmer

From: Martin Altmann <altmann_at_meteoritecentral.com>
Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2007 18:35:25 +0200
Message-ID: <003f01c80b5b$904a5860$177f2a59_at_name86d88d87e2>

Good Day Kevin,

I'm aware that it's highly risky to advance my opinion to that sensitive
matter (and I can hear some already think, so why don't you shut up?!),
but the image you're delineating from our hobby in old times is at least in
my opinion (I bought my first meteorite in 1981) a little bit misty-eyed.

Personalities like a Krantz, a Ward, a Nininger, a Haag and so on, nowadays
celebrated as "heros" of meteoritics (to take up an old posting from you)
and sometimes as pioneers of private and scientific meteorite collecting,
they all weren't only enthusiastic altruists, but were subjected to trivial
economical/"capitalistic" necessities too.

Of course in pre-internet times meteorite collecting was an even more cosy
and even more exclusive hobby than today. The communication was slowly,
the "tone" more civilized and less competitive, but to think that a New, a
Zeitschel, a Carion, an Eisler, a McCall and so on were in that branch
solely to act out their weakness for our cosmic stones and irons is an
illusion. If it wouldn't have amortized their efforts, they all wouldn't
have dealt with meteorites, but would have stayed collectors like you and
me.
And to think, that the big Gibeons, the Murchisons, the Gaos, the Allendes
and so on from former times in our cabinets would have been paid more
rewarding and fair to the locals, that Kevin, is somewhat greenly supposed.

Today the forms of communication have changed, they are more directly.
That is a development of modern times, in many sectors of our life.
We can't bring back the times of the Pony Express or where an overseas call
was an adventurous event.
Now more people are able to take part in our hobby (and to put their oar
in), with all advantages and disadvantages, for dealers it isn't so easy to
make money as in the times before the desert price crash and the meteorites
themselves due to the better availability maybe aren't appreciated that much
as the decades before.
In exchange for that change you have nowadays the full florilegium of all
types and even the rarest classes at a fraction of the prices compared
especially to the 90ies (if you had made a compendium of the assortments
even in 2000 including the early desert, you had found out, that there were
only 250-300 different locales permanently available, in pre-desert times
much less).
And due to the internet the whole market is more transparent for the
collectors as before, at any time you can check and compare the prices for
your desired locales within a few minutes.
Plus - we get much more information from all fields of our hobby and from
people with various backgrounds, see the list here, where in former times
you had to spend months in libraries and in sending letters forth and back.
Whenever a new fall occurs, it is a matter of hours until profound
information and often a question of a few days until the first material will
be available...
All that considered together, I think, certainly countervails the aspects of
the lost classiness of the hobby (and the dealers), that you think to feel
and that you regret.

And don't forget, such individuals like mentioned above then as well as the
dealers and hunters today, are almost the solely protagonist, who enable you
to collect meteorites at all.

That you're calculations about the proceeds Farmer will get out from that
trip are a na?ve fallacy, in German we say a "dairymaid's calculation",
you'll know by your own as you're now an entrepreneur in the hotel branch.
OECD says, average tax + dues quota in USA around 30% (poor Moritz, Germany
55%), other costs like ebay fees, paypal fees, classification share, and
hundred little other things of the running costs will reduce the profit.
Nevertheless he will earn money with the stones, no doubts. But remember,
that he has to do a mixed calculation for those trips, where he returned
unsuccessfully with empty hands. Good performance earns good reward,
and I guess, there exist less risky and more comfort ways to make one's day.
To refer to the costs per gram for the institutional campaigns in Antarctica
and the few successful ones in the hot deserts, I guess, is obsolete.

The adequate payment of the locals is not so apodictically to dispose as you
did. If I were polemic, I'd start: Kevin, pants off, they were sewn and
produced under inhumane conditions or would mention, what the 1st world hog
man and the 3rd world banana farmer gets paid per kilo and at what for
prices they're sold in our supermarkets.
Hmm I read from a German list member that the average income in Peru is 287$
per months, while 70% of the population don't reach that average (sounds
like Romania).
Certainly, Kevin, it would be desirable, that local people would profit more
from the happy event of a meteorite find.

What is you opinion about Bassikounou?
Principally it is a scandal, that such a fantastic fresh, crusted and
pristine fall is dealt at a retail price to the collectors of a mere 2$/g.
(Park Forest wasn't so nice looking, wasn't it?)
Take the money the NWA-finders are rewarded with, that question has a much
larger dimension than now the Peru-fall. I'm convinced that several
meteorite dealers would like to reward the people in Mahgreb to a higher
extend, but they can't. Take a look into ebay. Ordinary chondrites, W3, are
offered there at Buy-It-Nows of 30 or 40$/kg. Do you think, that it's an
adequate price and think about how much of that money will reach the end of
the suppliers chain. And 90% of the output of the deserts are those old
chondrites, forget about the fancy types. How shall the dealers pay more for
that material, if it has such low final prices? They simply can't, because
"the market", the collectors aren't willing to pay more.
That's by the way the reason for the disproportion of the volume of old OCs
versus the volume of rarer types, because the OCs aren't profitable at
present, so the meteorite dealers can't buy them anymore (or only for
stockpiling).
So if we discuss prices, we have to regard both ends of the chain.
Check the archives. There was a western person from Midelt, who was besieged
by Moroccans desperately asking him to sell their old OCs.
So he started here on the list an offer of a "Fair Trade" like we know it
for coffee, tea, chocolate ect.
That offer wasn't accepted at all, he wasn't able to sell a single stone,
because the collectors weren't willing to pay a higher price for that
purpose. And if you're browsing through the archives, you find endless
rantings, discussions ect. about meteorite prices and how expensive they
would be.

A solution I can't offer.

- To set everything under the custody of the respective states, there I
seriously would doubt, whether an adequate refund would arrive at the
locals. Either the stones would be declared as state property without any
ompensation for the finders, or in such countries, which have major problems
with corruption each administrative level inbetween would embezzle its
share.
Second problem is, that in several countries the "officials" wouldn't be
trained to handle meteorites appropriate. Say, what you want, now with Peru
- each rookie on this list here is aware of, that it isn't a good idea to
clean his fresh chondrite under the faucet...
And with fresh falls, one has to act quickly, each day they are exposed
unprotected to our harsh terrestrial conditions, they'll loose important
information.
Universities, administration etc - aside, that they'd have to organize
financial means - tend to act more inertially than private persons.
That's not meant vs. the Peruvians - we all remember e.g. the horrible
disaster with Tagish Lake.

- Fine it would be, if science and research would buy those meteorites and
reward the finders and locals. But they don't. They are content with the
expenses and the results of the Antarctic campaigns, some political
decisions let them not buy neither and all find fault with the insufficient
budgets, they get granted for their field.

- Ideal would be private collectors, buying the stones and donating them to
museums, universities other institutions.
But patronage, like it exist e.g. in the field of arts and many other
branches, is almost unknown in meteoritics. Simply because meteorite
collecting is not so popular.


Well, and how someone is promoting his material, is indeed a question of
taste, hence will be always disputable.
Some like to develop a story around a stone, others like to style and
profile and promote rather their person, again others let speak the material
for itsself, and again others make no wind at all.
That was always so, also in the good ol' times.
Remember Haag, he made always a big ballyhoo (of course winking) - and now
it is commonly accepted, that he was the biggest promoter of our hobby of
the last decades.
If like in the case of Farmer, one gets fast first-hand-information and
photos of a new fall, then one easily can connive at his sporadic outbursts
of his temperament, can't one?

Last but not least - and supposedly that it the thing, which annoyed you,
I fully agree with you, that there was so much poison spread in that
meteorite fall, which saddened an for us joyous event.
Far from siding with Mike Farmer, I have to say, that it wasn't him,
who initially injected the venom. If you prove the chain of postings here,
you'll agree.

And furthermore, I think the Peruvian fall shouldn't embitter your joy and
enthusiasm for your hobby, as it is an exception.
You've have to have in mind, that it was quite the biggest fall in newer
history. Exciting, unfortunately also into both meanings. Many people
involved and a huge media hype.

Please take a look to almost all other falls of the last decade,
How civilized, calm, reasonable they were handled.
Some of them even so silently, that they even weren't mentioned on the
meteorite list here! (Take a look into the Bulletin database).

So I hope you calm down.
That post wasn't thought to be offensive and it expresses only my thoughts.
I felt compelled to write something,
because that thing went almost so grotesque, that outsiders and beginners
could get a wrong impression about the meteorite people in general,
so that they almost must come to the conclusion, that the fall of a new
meteorite is a sad and calamitous event for the meteorite community.
(So I hope they read the more sober and enthusiastic mails from Sterling and
many others).

Best regards!
Martin
  



-----Urspr?ngliche Nachricht-----
Von: meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com
[mailto:meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com] Im Auftrag von Kevin
Kichinka
Gesendet: Mittwoch, 10. Oktober 2007 06:39
An: meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com
Betreff: [meteorite-list] Erwin Rivera Carancas Recognition -Suggestion
forMike "Tiger Man" Farmer

Hola don Michael:

re: The Peru meteorite.

My patience with your "impact" on the hobby I love has ended. I regret
that I am making these public remarks, lets call it a "family
discussion", but as the present "face of the hobby" you are
jeopardizing the kind and gentle nature of collecting meteorites. I
don't understand why this is being tolerated by others, but I do not
accept your actions as representative of this pasttime.

You wrote:

"Good luck getting your pieces from Bolivia. I give a 1 in 10 chance
for a package to arrive unpilfered."

But a free package of the Peru meteorite from a Cochabamba mineral
dealer arrives safely to a client in the USA.

Then you wonder:

"I am confused, he sends free meteorites and photos, in
the mail, from Bolivia?
Why? What is the catch? Why is he throwing money away?
Michael Farmer"

I suppose that it is because for some people, reputation or generosity
is more important than pursuing fame and money. This dealer actually
just changed his website to defend his honor. Why? Were there so many
people commenting on this individuals poor business practices, or was
it just you, Mike Farmer, on the m-list alluding to a negative outcome
to anyone who would send money to a Bolivian dealer?

Aren't you the one who always claims untoward remarks are slander?

Because of your Peruvian visit, arguably an "attractive nuisance" in
legal terms as you arrived passing out US dollars for "dangerous"
rocks in a place with a per capita income less than Haiti, the bulk of
the police force of the area is now out of work, and the locals
without whatever degree of protection they previously enjoyed. The
crater is being guarded 24 hours a day to protect it from the likes of
you.

Of course, Desaguaderos is a "craphole, the definition that would come
up first."

The scientists involved? "The people from the University of Peru are
clueless."

Are you campaigning to become the next "anti-Christ"? You have my vote.

You write:

"The meteorite in the crater weighs in excess of 4,000 to 5,000 kilos."

You write:

".... taken by locals mostly crumbs and dust, we got nice pieces, all
pristine, not rusted crap."

You write:

".... meteorite is mostly lost/rusted away...."

You write:

"... twenty to thirty kilos were found by tourists and locals"

You write:

"Forget it, this meteorite will be lost, is already
three weeks under water as of today, is being damaged
beyond repair.
There are a few kilos recovered. Whatever is now left
in the crater will be mud, or extremely
damaged/weathered material.
We are selling by the way.... Michael Farmer"

So according to you, there are 4,000 to 5,000 kilos in the ground and
perhaps thirty kilos recovered.But it is all "crumbs and dust", "lost
and rusty".

ATTENTION SHOPPERS! Only Tiger Man can sell you, "by the way",
authenticated pristine specimens.

And this dialogue runs to forty-eight (48) messages in nine days.

And some thought Steve (Chicago) abused the list.

Mike, your cost for the 300 grams you say you collected was $1,000
according to you. Your RT plane ticket from Cali, Columbia was less
than $600 as per Expedia.com, your hotel room $4/night ("We
overpaid.."), taxi from the border was $40. "Gifts" to the police was
$300 ($100 each). Food and beer is almost nothing. Your estimated cost
per gram is about $7.

Let me not forget the price you paid for the rights to the photo of
the meteorite contrail, "I gave him enough to buy a new camera and
take 1000 photos."

So we're at $7.25/gm.

You are selling this for $100/gm, right? 300gms. times $100 =
$30,000. Is your profit about $28,000 for less than a weeks "work"? So
you expect a $28K profit AND a vacation tax write-off of $2K?

You go, capitalism!

You write:

"Come on, these people are poor, the country had an
earthquake that left tens of thousands homeless barely
two months ago.
It is simple, we pumped the water from the crater. It
worked OK, of course will immediately begins to
refill. You need 10 men with buckets and shovels,
nothing more. You dig, you pump, you dig, you pump and
in one or two days, the entire crater can be
excavated.
No equipment needed other than pumps and manpower,
which we had."

So you have a plan. Good. I propose that the meteorite is NOT "rusty
crap". The water it sits in is from a spring and is fresh.

I remind all that Pena Blanca Springs sat in a pond until it was
drained and the pieces dug out of the mud. No less than the the
angrite Angra dos Reis was retrieved from the Atlantic Ocean.

Mike, a gesture, call it penance, really the least you could do, would
be to return to Peru and pay the couple of thousand bucks in that
fifty cent economy and dig up the rock.

After all, it was money sent to YOU directly from Heaven, so do
something once to pretend to be an Angel, not a Tiger.

>From Nine Degrees North,

Kevin Kichinka
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Received on Wed 10 Oct 2007 12:35:25 PM PDT