[meteorite-list] Shawnee tradition, hermeneutic condition

From: Thaddeus Besedin <endophasy_at_meteoritecentral.com>
Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2007 22:42:21 -0700 (PDT)
Message-ID: <199849.60813.qm_at_web62514.mail.re1.yahoo.com>

Sorry. I need to proofread. It's a sentence: to
minutes of unnecessary convolution. The parenthetic
section should have been a footnote.
-Thaddeus
--- dmouat <dmouat at dri.edu> wrote:

> That first sentence (if it is, in fact, a sentence)
> is definitely the
> longest (albeit obfuscatory) I've "read" all month.
>
> Hohohoba
>
> Thaddeus Besedin wrote:
>
> >The Shawnee and others are the ONLY sources of
> >Pleistocene cultural information, possibly
> preserved
> >in accounts of the cosmogony of late-coming
> >Paleoindian populations (as also can be expected of
> >the mythopoesis of indigenous Northern Asian
> >populations, e.g. early Jomon Proto-Ainu
> >people(~16,000 BP - ~2,450 BP), certainly surviving
> >relatively intact through the cold snap of the
> Younger
> >Dryas, although not necessarily witnessing an
> impact -
> >unless by hemispheric diffuse supernova ejecta),
> that
> >a study, constrained entirely to an output of
> >speculative-associative quasi-syntheses with all
> >caveats understood, can draw from. Unverifiability
> is
> >not itself completely at odds with scientific
> >practice, and correspondence of paleoclimatological
> >reconstructions, geological evidence, and
> >archaeological evidence can parallel mythos and, to
> a
> >minimal degree, offer a possible translation of
> >metaphorical-allegorical narrative. Thus, scholars
> >with the aspirations of an E.P. Grondine are
> limited
> >to a view of their subject from distances beyond
> mere
> >time (semantic indeterminability/incommensurability
> >apply - a transmission from crystallized indigenous
> >accounts, to eurocentric 19th c. ethnographers to
> >E.P.G.). Archaeolgy is much easier, but certainly
> >mute.
> >
> >Just don't call Hibben a rigorous and ethical
> >scientist.
> >
> >We must, to arrive at the closest degee of recorded
> >experience, decolonialize our view of vanquished
> >non-european cultural traditions, but what we have
> >left (Eurocentric ethnographies)is the best that we
> >have left. What do the current Shawnee think of the
> >works of white ethnographers?
> >One last thing - I found this article at the PNAS
> >site, although another list member may have beat me
> to
> >it:
> >"Evidence for an extraterrestrial impact 12,900
> years
> >ago that contributed to the megafaunal extinctions
> >and the Younger Dryas cooling"
> >http://www.pnas.org/cgi/reprint/0706977104v1.pdf
> >[full-color images, graphs, etc. in PDF format]
> >
> >--- "E.P. Grondine" <epgrondine at yahoo.com> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> >>Dirk wrote:
> >>
> >>List and Ed,
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>>Continuing discussion follows EPG`s final
> question.
> >>>
> >>>
>
>>----------------------------------------------------
> >>"E.P. Grondine" <epgrondine at yahoo.com> wrote:"...
> >>
> >>"Do you really want to stand by such a display of
> a
> >>lack of intelligence and sense, or do you wish to
> >>reconsider that statement?"
> >>
> >>
> >>
>
>-----------------------------------------------------
> >
> >
> >>>Yes, I stand by my statements of fact.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>They were no statements of fact, Dirk.
> >>
> >>You made assertions concerning Native American
> >>traditions which were both factually incorrect, as
> >>well as displayed an amazing ignorance of the
> field
> >>of
> >>anthropology. You compared millenium old
> traditions
> >>with a 175 year old forgery.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>>And yes, you finally admitted that your facts are
> >>>
> >>>
> >>indeed "your" belief, thus not science.
> >>
> >>And how did you get that? My facts are one thing,
> >>my
> >>beliefs another.
> >>
> >>I gave the allegories of several Native American
> >>religions in "Man and Impact in the Americas", as
> >>well
> >>as giving their oral histories there - and mainly
> I
> >>gave their histories. Those are "facts" about
> those
> >>peoples in and of themselves.
> >>
> >>By the way, the Maya had written writing, and made
> >>contemporaneous records of events.
> >>
> >>What I "believe" is something else. I think that
> >>there
> >>are Christians who are scientists, Jews who are
> >>scientists, Moslems who are scientists, Budhists
> who
> >>are scientists. Can't one hold a Native American
> >>belief system and be a scientist? Or can science
> >>only
> >>practiced by atheists and English Deists?
> >>
> >>Or perhaps history and anthropology are not
> >>sciences?
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>>Belief posed as fact or science is poor
> >>>
> >>>
> >>scholarship,
> >>
> >>
> >>>as your book and excerpts clearly display.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>So is misrepresenting someone else's work, and
> >>misrepresenting their use of materials.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>>Also, lack of any primary research (nothing
> >>>
> >>>
> >>remotely
> >>demonstrating proof of any Holocene impact)
> >>
> >>Except for the sudden population losses and
> cultural
> >>discontinuities...
> >>
> >>But then displays of physical evidence are often
> >>invisible to some people. So watch the National
> >>Geographic Channel program on TV.
> >>
> >>As a final point, the day after my final warning
> to
> >>Darryl on Williamette, I ran into a gentleman
> whose
> >>uncle had bulldozed a mound. Three days later he
> >>was
> >>found dead of heart attack drooped over a toilet
> >>into
> >>which he had been vomiting "stuff that looked like
> >>s***".
> >>
> >>While that's a fact, it is only my belief that no
> >>good
> >>will come to Darryl or anyone from dealing
> >>Williamette
> >>- if he or anyone else wants to join the dataset,
> go
> >>on ahead. Beyond this warning, like the others, I
> >>will
> >>simply look on in "dismay".
> >>
> >>E.P. Grondine
> >>Man and Impact in the Americas
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
>
>____________________________________________________________________________________
>
=== message truncated ===



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Received on Wed 10 Oct 2007 01:42:21 AM PDT