[meteorite-list] AL HAGGOUNIA 001 ("NOT" AUBRITE)

From: mexicodoug <mexicodoug_at_meteoritecentral.com>
Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 13:08:14 -0600
Message-ID: <002701c832bb$32d80470$1950dd94_at_MICASA>

Mike wrote:

"... chondrules in most pieces ...
if some ... chondules ... then it is a chondrite,
if ... a chondrite, it cannot be an Aubrite."

Dr. Grossman posted that the aubrite classification, or the E-chondrite
classification, like all classifications in the Bulletin, is not peer
reviewed literature. It is simply a preliminary naming register with
unreviewed conclusions of individual professionals. If Mike's logic is ok,
and these are chondrules with scientific precision, it is still incomplete
should this be a brecciated fall.

"... garbage, since it is millions of years old."
Dr. Jambon's abstract seems to disagree with the age, i.e., despite prior
claims, this is not a "fossil" (or any equivalent sexy term) meteorite
because it is basically scattered about, including on the surface, and not
from any sediment. That would make it simply a meteorite sensitive to
weathering, that is just about completely weathered. Those are their
conclusions.

Martin asked about the value.
Commercial value is determined by Supply distribution vs. demand. Three
tons (as postred by Phillipe) will keep the commercial value, if any,
reasonable. Scientific value beyond mapping the strewn field, seems to be
rather challenging.

Greg indicated that the pairings in these aubrite/EL classifications were
fairly certain. His question is more ethical - can classifying scientists
ignore information about a fall when provided? To answer this, we would
need to see what was presented by whom and to whom, and when. Also, we
would need to ask whether material with an NWA number should be mixed with
material with a place name and field research and proper coordinates are
registered - and the nuances related to that.

These are the conclusions I can manage from this discussion. So we are back
to Jeff's comment. It has still not been peer reviewed. Shucks, I guess
that's life,

Best wishes,
Doug


> Michael Farmer
> --- Philippe Thomas <thomasmeteorites at wanadoo.fr>
> wrote:
>
>> Dear Greg and all,
>>
>> It is not usual for me to participate in the debates
>> because by experience often these remain sterile and
>> my level of English does not allow me to make me
>> understood completely.
>>
>> Here is that I have to say as comment of this
>> meteorite:
>>
>> First, all the Moroccan having a relationship with
>> the business of meteorites know Al Haggounia's
>> strewnfield (Western Sahara not Algeria) for a long
>> time before that you and I let us be
>> dealers of meteorites. At this time, nobody was
>> certain that he can involve a meteorite, the
>> knowledge of Moroccan were not the one from now and
>> it is necessary to say that first sight
>> has it is not evident to recognize a meteorite in
>> this material. The first analyzed pieces and
>> declared numbers were classified EL6, E6 and the
>> first one which has been classified as an
>> aubrite was the NWA 2736.
>>
>> This classification launched a new rush on Al
>> Haggounia, and hundreds of kilos of this material
>> met itself has Erfoud.
>>
>> In April, 2006, when I met my Moroccan partner in
>> Erfoud, he showed me several hundreds of kilos of
>> this material in bags which had just arrived from
>> Western Sahara. In these hundreds
>> of kilos, I chose carefully several kilos of all the
>> representative parts of this meteorite to give them
>> later to Albert Jambon. As well as Fred Beroud, Ali
>> Hmani and Ait Ouzrou, who agreed
>> to make a common declaration rather than multiply
>> the numbers NWA, supplied a big quantity of material
>> to Albert Jambon.
>>
>> I think that Albert Jambon is the most qualified
>> person to describe this meteorite. Before subjecting
>> his declaration he went up an expedition to go on
>> the spot in association with the
>> other French and Moroccan scientists. The
>> strewnfield as described by Albert Jambon and others
>> scientists who participated in the expedition is a
>> classic strewnfield, an ellipse 40 km
>> long with the also classic distribution of the big
>> and small pieces. On the strewnfield the geologists
>> make the dating of the ground and all the analyses
>> to describe the strewnfield. They
>> found themselves several pieces of this meteorite.
>> In Laayoune, Albert Jambon also saw several hundreds
>> of kilos of this meteorite with Moroccan involved in
>> the search on the
>> strewnfield. What gives approximately 3 tons for
>> this meteorite if we add the various pairings.
>>
>> There is no doubt, and I believe that everybody
>> agrees, that all this material NWA xxxx and Al
>> Haggounia 001 with different results of analysis is
>> the same. It was classified EL6, E6,
>> aubrite, EL6 / 7, EL3... Three different
>> laboratories have classified this meteorite as an
>> aubrite.
>> For the owners of a part of this meteorite which
>> supplied the typical sample has a scientist so that
>> he made the analysis, there is no reason for not
>> believing the scientist in question
>> whom he has to trust in the quality of his work it
>> is a question of respect.
>>
>> In this case, in which we are certain that it is
>> about the same meteorite, the various
>> classifications raise naturally a problem. The
>> important weathering of this meteorite explains
>> maybe
>> the difficulty of the determination.
>>
>> To end, I think that no dealer can grant himself the
>> right to say such analysis is the good and such the
>> other one is false and there is no reason to say
>> that the good analysis is EL3.
>>
>> Best wishes,
>> Philippe
>>
>> http://www.meteoritica.com/
>>
>> Dear Frederic, Matteo and List Members,
>>
>> "Al Haggounia 001"(NWA 4420), NWA 2828 and the other
>> Fossil EL3's are NOT, I repeat, NOT aubrites. I wish
>> they were, I have many, many kilos of NWA 2828. At
>> first when just the type
>> sample was tested, it came back as an aubrite, no
>> chondrules were found. After cutting more of the NWA
>> 2828 material I had, I began to find these funny
>> round things and I thought, "Oh
>> no, these are chondrules, this can not be an
>> aubrite". I then sent more sample material in to
>> have tested and sure enough, they WERE chondrules.
>> Unfortunately I had not cut the material
>> for sale until the classification and abstract were
>> approved. After the chondrules were found and
>> confirmed by several US scientists, a revised
>> classification and abstract were submitted.
>> The abstract was approved, see here:
>> http://adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/2006AGUFM.P51E1247K
>> but the NWA 2828 classification was not changed by
>> the Meteoritical Society in the
>> bulletin (not sure why this is, any one out there
>> who can address this?).
>>
>> The classifying scientist who studied NWA 4420 "Al
>> Haggounia", Dr. Jambon, refused scientific data
>> supporting the EL3 classification from the US
>> scientists and classified the sample he
>> had as an aubrite. This material IS THE SAME AS NWA
>> 2828, the now infamous EL3 Fossil (Paleo) meteorite!
>> I do not know if "Al Haggnounia" is trying to be
>> wished into being an aubrite,
>> but IT IS NOT!!! Those who have sent Dr. Jambon
>> sample material need to send him and other
>> scientists more samples that show the true makeup of
>> this meteorite. In other words, send
>> samples with those funny round things so the
>> classification can be made correctly. When new data
>> and evidence is presented, it is up to the dealers
>> AND the scientists to do the right
>> thing.
>>
>> To error is OK as long as a correction is made as in
>> the case of NWA 2828, hence the title of the revised
>> abstract, "EL3 Chondrite (not Aubrite) Northwest
>> Africa 2828: An Unusual Paleo-
>> meteorite Occurring as Cobbles in a Terrestrial
>> Conglomerate". See here:
>> http://adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/2006AGUFM.P51E1247K
>>
>> I wish NWA 2828 was an aubrite, but an EL3 Fossil
>> meteorite is pretty cool too. Anyone want an
>> excellent deal on some nice and clean NWA 2828
>> stones?
>>
>> Respectfully,
>> Greg
>>
>> ====================
>> Greg Hupe
>> The Hupe Collection
>> NaturesVault (eBay)
>> gmhupe at htn.net
>> www.LunarRock.com
>> IMCA 3163
>> ====================
>> Click here for my current eBay auctions:
>> http://search.ebay.com/_W0QQsassZnaturesvault
>>
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "meteoriteshow"
>> <meteoriteshow at free.fr>
>> To: "Meteorite List Meteoritecentral"
>> <meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com>
>> Sent: Wednesday, November 28, 2007 9:54 AM
>> Subject: [meteorite-list] AD - AL HAGGOUNIA 001
>> (AUBRITE)
>>
>>
>> Dear Listees,
>>
>> Sorry, the links where cut in my previous post.
>> So please just find them (I hope this time uncut)
>> hereunder:
>>
>> 1/ Al Haggounia 001 / Meteoritical Society:
>>
> http://tin.er.usgs.gov/meteor/metbull.php?sfor=names&categ=Aubrites&mblist=92
>>
>> 2/ Al Haggounia 001 for sale on Meteoriteshow web
>> site:
>>
> http://meteoriteshow.free.fr/meteoriteshow%20fra/pages%20navigation/pieces_en_vente-fra.htm#NWA4420
>>
>>
>>
>> kind regards,
>>
>> Frederic Beroud
>> IMCA #2491
>> www.meteoriteshow.com
>>
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Received on Thu 29 Nov 2007 02:08:14 PM PST