[meteorite-list] AL HAGGOUNIA 001 ("NOT" AUBRITE)

From: Philippe Thomas <thomasmeteorites_at_meteoritecentral.com>
Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 19:58:41 +0100 (CET)
Message-ID: <20776021.37431196362720515.JavaMail.www_at_wwinf1503>

Michael,

I was maybe not enough complete and precise in my first message.
It is evident that the scientists which makes the declaration as an aubrite did not find chondrules. For them, the circular forms which could be confused with
chondrules are not chondrules. The claimed chondrules are really "concretions". It is not my job to give supplementary precision on the subject.
On the other hand, analyses on the ground and the dating of the ground give evidence that it is not a fossil meteorite. The meteorite has absolutely no millions of
years, but once again it is not my job to give supplementary precision.

Best wishes,
Philippe
http://www.meteoritica.com/

I am confused, if some pieces have chondules (which I
know they do as I also was in Morocco more than once
or twice:) then it is a chondrite, and if it is a
chondrite, it cannot be an Aubrite. I myself cut more
than 50 kilos of pieces most of it was absolute
garbage, since it is millions of years old. I found
chondrules in most pieces, some did not seem to
exhibit any.
Since we all agree that this material is paired, then
why the argument over Aubrite or E chondrite.
Chondrules in any of it must knock out the Aubrite
cassification.
Michael Farmer
--- Philippe Thomas <thomasmeteorites at wanadoo.fr>
wrote:

Dear Greg and all,

It is not usual for me to participate in the debates
because by experience often these remain sterile and
my level of English does not allow me to make me
understood completely.

Here is that I have to say as comment of this
meteorite:

First, all the Moroccan having a relationship with
the business of meteorites know Al Haggounia's
strewnfield (Western Sahara not Algeria) for a long
time before that you and I let us be
dealers of meteorites. At this time, nobody was
certain that he can involve a meteorite, the
knowledge of Moroccan were not the one from now and
it is necessary to say that first sight
has it is not evident to recognize a meteorite in
this material. The first analyzed pieces and
declared numbers were classified EL6, E6 and the
first one which has been classified as an
aubrite was the NWA 2736.

This classification launched a new rush on Al
Haggounia, and hundreds of kilos of this material
met itself has Erfoud.

In April, 2006, when I met my Moroccan partner in
Erfoud, he showed me several hundreds of kilos of
this material in bags which had just arrived from
Western Sahara. In these hundreds
of kilos, I chose carefully several kilos of all the
representative parts of this meteorite to give them
later to Albert Jambon. As well as Fred Beroud, Ali
Hmani and Ait Ouzrou, who agreed
to make a common declaration rather than multiply
the numbers NWA, supplied a big quantity of material
to Albert Jambon.

I think that Albert Jambon is the most qualified
person to describe this meteorite. Before subjecting
his declaration he went up an expedition to go on
the spot in association with the
other French and Moroccan scientists. The
strewnfield as described by Albert Jambon and others
scientists who participated in the expedition is a
classic strewnfield, an ellipse 40 km
long with the also classic distribution of the big
and small pieces. On the strewnfield the geologists
make the dating of the ground and all the analyses
to describe the strewnfield. They
found themselves several pieces of this meteorite.
In Laayoune, Albert Jambon also saw several hundreds
of kilos of this meteorite with Moroccan involved in
the search on the
strewnfield. What gives approximately 3 tons for
this meteorite if we add the various pairings.

There is no doubt, and I believe that everybody
agrees, that all this material NWA xxxx and Al
Haggounia 001 with different results of analysis is
the same. It was classified EL6, E6,
aubrite, EL6 / 7, EL3... Three different
laboratories have classified this meteorite as an
aubrite.
For the owners of a part of this meteorite which
supplied the typical sample has a scientist so that
he made the analysis, there is no reason for not
believing the scientist in question
whom he has to trust in the quality of his work it
is a question of respect.

In this case, in which we are certain that it is
about the same meteorite, the various
classifications raise naturally a problem. The
important weathering of this meteorite explains
maybe
the difficulty of the determination.

To end, I think that no dealer can grant himself the
right to say such analysis is the good and such the
other one is false and there is no reason to say
that the good analysis is EL3.

Best wishes,
Philippe

http://www.meteoritica.com/

Dear Frederic, Matteo and List Members,

"Al Haggounia 001"(NWA 4420), NWA 2828 and the other
Fossil EL3's are NOT, I repeat, NOT aubrites. I wish
they were, I have many, many kilos of NWA 2828. At
first when just the type
sample was tested, it came back as an aubrite, no
chondrules were found. After cutting more of the NWA
2828 material I had, I began to find these funny
round things and I thought, "Oh
no, these are chondrules, this can not be an
aubrite". I then sent more sample material in to
have tested and sure enough, they WERE chondrules.
Unfortunately I had not cut the material
for sale until the classification and abstract were
approved. After the chondrules were found and
confirmed by several US scientists, a revised
classification and abstract were submitted.
The abstract was approved, see here:
http://adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/2006AGUFM.P51E1247K
but the NWA 2828 classification was not changed by
the Meteoritical Society in the
bulletin (not sure why this is, any one out there
who can address this?).

The classifying scientist who studied NWA 4420 "Al
Haggounia", Dr. Jambon, refused scientific data
supporting the EL3 classification from the US
scientists and classified the sample he
had as an aubrite. This material IS THE SAME AS NWA
2828, the now infamous EL3 Fossil (Paleo) meteorite!
I do not know if "Al Haggnounia" is trying to be
wished into being an aubrite,
but IT IS NOT!!! Those who have sent Dr. Jambon
sample material need to send him and other
scientists more samples that show the true makeup of
this meteorite. In other words, send
samples with those funny round things so the
classification can be made correctly. When new data
and evidence is presented, it is up to the dealers
AND the scientists to do the right
thing.

To error is OK as long as a correction is made as in
the case of NWA 2828, hence the title of the revised
abstract, "EL3 Chondrite (not Aubrite) Northwest
Africa 2828: An Unusual Paleo-
meteorite Occurring as Cobbles in a Terrestrial
Conglomerate". See here:
http://adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/2006AGUFM.P51E1247K

I wish NWA 2828 was an aubrite, but an EL3 Fossil
meteorite is pretty cool too. Anyone want an
excellent deal on some nice and clean NWA 2828
stones?

Respectfully,
Greg

====================
Greg Hupe
The Hupe Collection
NaturesVault (eBay)
gmhupe at htn.net
www.LunarRock.com
IMCA 3163
====================
Click here for my current eBay auctions:
http://search.ebay.com/_W0QQsassZnaturesvault



----- Original Message ----- From: "meteoriteshow"
<meteoriteshow at free.fr>
To: "Meteorite List Meteoritecentral"
<meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com>
Sent: Wednesday, November 28, 2007 9:54 AM
Subject: [meteorite-list] AD - AL HAGGOUNIA 001
(AUBRITE)


Dear Listees,

Sorry, the links where cut in my previous post.
So please just find them (I hope this time uncut)
hereunder:

1/ Al Haggounia 001 / Meteoritical Society:

http://tin.er.usgs.gov/meteor/metbull.php?sfor=names&categ=Aubrites&mblist=92

2/ Al Haggounia 001 for sale on Meteoriteshow web
site:

http://meteoriteshow.free.fr/meteoriteshow%20fra/pages%20navigation/pieces_en_vente-fra.htm#NWA4420



kind regards,

Frederic Beroud
IMCA #2491
www.meteoriteshow.com

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Received on Thu 29 Nov 2007 01:58:41 PM PST