[meteorite-list] AL HAGGOUNIA 001 ("NOT" AUBRITE)

From: Greg Hupe <gmhupe_at_meteoritecentral.com>
Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 07:56:34 -0500
Message-ID: <00a101c83287$46fe8c00$0200a8c0_at_Gregor>

Dear Jeff, Philippe and Martin,

Thank you all for your contributions to this discussion regarding NWA 2828
EL3 (Aubrite?) and all of its pairings (named or otherwise). I can certainly
see where all of the confusion lays with this one, I was directly involved
from the beginning and was in Layounne myself. What I do not get is when a
scientist is offered supporting, or non-supporting data but completely
ignores it from the other scientists who have spend much time on it.

If this meteorite was a breccia and part of it appears to be an aubrite and
the other part(s) appear to be EL/3, can it be classified as an
"Aubrite/EL3-6" or something like that? If the name Al Haggnounia 001 has
been officially accepted for this material, shouldn't all of the NWA
assignments then also be called the same since scientific data (GPS, etc.)
were obtained?

I am only trying to understand this whole mess with this one. I have plenty
as well as many others so that is not the issue. This is one occurrence
where the world-wide classifying scientists need to cooperate with each
other and get it done. There is not a national pride issue going on, or at
least I do not think so. I know the US scientists offered the others the
data but it was refused for one reason or another. I do not think refusal of
help is any way to accomplish the end result here. This could very well be
one of the most important (or at least interesting) finds,
asreroidly-speaking.

Best regards,
Greg

====================
Greg Hupe
The Hupe Collection
NaturesVault (eBay)
gmhupe at htn.net
www.LunarRock.com
IMCA 3163
====================
Click here for my current eBay auctions:
http://search.ebay.com/_W0QQsassZnaturesvault



----- Original Message -----
From: "Philippe Thomas" <thomasmeteorites at wanadoo.fr>
To: <meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com>
Cc: <gmhupe at htn.net>; <jambon at ccr.jussieu.fr>
Sent: Thursday, November 29, 2007 4:21 AM
Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] AL HAGGOUNIA 001 ("NOT" AUBRITE)


> Dear Greg and all,
>
> It is not usual for me to participate in the debates because by experience
> often these remain sterile and my level of English does not allow me to
> make me understood completely.
>
> Here is that I have to say as comment of this meteorite:
>
> First, all the Moroccan having a relationship with the business of
> meteorites know Al Haggounia's strewnfield (Western Sahara not Algeria)
> for a long time before that you and I let us be
> dealers of meteorites. At this time, nobody was certain that he can
> involve a meteorite, the knowledge of Moroccan were not the one from now
> and it is necessary to say that first sight
> has it is not evident to recognize a meteorite in this material. The first
> analyzed pieces and declared numbers were classified EL6, E6 and the first
> one which has been classified as an
> aubrite was the NWA 2736.
>
> This classification launched a new rush on Al Haggounia, and hundreds of
> kilos of this material met itself has Erfoud.
>
> In April, 2006, when I met my Moroccan partner in Erfoud, he showed me
> several hundreds of kilos of this material in bags which had just arrived
> from Western Sahara. In these hundreds
> of kilos, I chose carefully several kilos of all the representative parts
> of this meteorite to give them later to Albert Jambon. As well as Fred
> Beroud, Ali Hmani and Ait Ouzrou, who agreed
> to make a common declaration rather than multiply the numbers NWA,
> supplied a big quantity of material to Albert Jambon.
>
> I think that Albert Jambon is the most qualified person to describe this
> meteorite. Before subjecting his declaration he went up an expedition to
> go on the spot in association with the
> other French and Moroccan scientists. The strewnfield as described by
> Albert Jambon and others scientists who participated in the expedition is
> a classic strewnfield, an ellipse 40 km
> long with the also classic distribution of the big and small pieces. On
> the strewnfield the geologists make the dating of the ground and all the
> analyses to describe the strewnfield. They
> found themselves several pieces of this meteorite. In Laayoune, Albert
> Jambon also saw several hundreds of kilos of this meteorite with Moroccan
> involved in the search on the
> strewnfield. What gives approximately 3 tons for this meteorite if we add
> the various pairings.
>
> There is no doubt, and I believe that everybody agrees, that all this
> material NWA xxxx and Al Haggounia 001 with different results of analysis
> is the same. It was classified EL6, E6,
> aubrite, EL6 / 7, EL3... Three different laboratories have classified this
> meteorite as an aubrite.
> For the owners of a part of this meteorite which supplied the typical
> sample has a scientist so that he made the analysis, there is no reason
> for not believing the scientist in question
> whom he has to trust in the quality of his work it is a question of
> respect.
>
> In this case, in which we are certain that it is about the same meteorite,
> the various classifications raise naturally a problem. The important
> weathering of this meteorite explains maybe
> the difficulty of the determination.
>
> To end, I think that no dealer can grant himself the right to say such
> analysis is the good and such the other one is false and there is no
> reason to say that the good analysis is EL3.
>
> Best wishes,
> Philippe
>
> http://www.meteoritica.com/
>
> Dear Frederic, Matteo and List Members,
>
> "Al Haggounia 001"(NWA 4420), NWA 2828 and the other Fossil EL3's are NOT,
> I repeat, NOT aubrites. I wish they were, I have many, many kilos of NWA
> 2828. At first when just the type
> sample was tested, it came back as an aubrite, no chondrules were found.
> After cutting more of the NWA 2828 material I had, I began to find these
> funny round things and I thought, "Oh
> no, these are chondrules, this can not be an aubrite". I then sent more
> sample material in to have tested and sure enough, they WERE chondrules.
> Unfortunately I had not cut the material
> for sale until the classification and abstract were approved. After the
> chondrules were found and confirmed by several US scientists, a revised
> classification and abstract were submitted.
> The abstract was approved, see here:
> http://adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/2006AGUFM.P51E1247K but the NWA 2828
> classification was not changed by the Meteoritical Society in the
> bulletin (not sure why this is, any one out there who can address this?).
>
> The classifying scientist who studied NWA 4420 "Al Haggounia", Dr. Jambon,
> refused scientific data supporting the EL3 classification from the US
> scientists and classified the sample he
> had as an aubrite. This material IS THE SAME AS NWA 2828, the now infamous
> EL3 Fossil (Paleo) meteorite! I do not know if "Al Haggnounia" is trying
> to be wished into being an aubrite,
> but IT IS NOT!!! Those who have sent Dr. Jambon sample material need to
> send him and other scientists more samples that show the true makeup of
> this meteorite. In other words, send
> samples with those funny round things so the classification can be made
> correctly. When new data and evidence is presented, it is up to the
> dealers AND the scientists to do the right
> thing.
>
> To error is OK as long as a correction is made as in the case of NWA 2828,
> hence the title of the revised abstract, "EL3 Chondrite (not Aubrite)
> Northwest Africa 2828: An Unusual Paleo-
> meteorite Occurring as Cobbles in a Terrestrial Conglomerate". See here:
> http://adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/2006AGUFM.P51E1247K
>
> I wish NWA 2828 was an aubrite, but an EL3 Fossil meteorite is pretty cool
> too. Anyone want an excellent deal on some nice and clean NWA 2828 stones?
>
> Respectfully,
> Greg
>
> ====================
> Greg Hupe
> The Hupe Collection
> NaturesVault (eBay)
> gmhupe at htn.net
> www.LunarRock.com
> IMCA 3163
> ====================
> Click here for my current eBay auctions:
> http://search.ebay.com/_W0QQsassZnaturesvault
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "meteoriteshow" <meteoriteshow at free.fr>
> To: "Meteorite List Meteoritecentral"
> <meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com>
> Sent: Wednesday, November 28, 2007 9:54 AM
> Subject: [meteorite-list] AD - AL HAGGOUNIA 001 (AUBRITE)
>
>
> Dear Listees,
>
> Sorry, the links where cut in my previous post.
> So please just find them (I hope this time uncut) hereunder:
>
> 1/ Al Haggounia 001 / Meteoritical Society:
> http://tin.er.usgs.gov/meteor/metbull.php?sfor=names&categ=Aubrites&mblist=92
>
> 2/ Al Haggounia 001 for sale on Meteoriteshow web site:
> http://meteoriteshow.free.fr/meteoriteshow%20fra/pages%20navigation/pieces_en_vente-fra.htm#NWA4420
>
>
>
> kind regards,
>
> Frederic Beroud
> IMCA #2491
> www.meteoriteshow.com
>
> ______________________________________________
> http://www.meteoritecentral.com
> Meteorite-list mailing list
> Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com
> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
>
>
> ______________________________________________
> http://www.meteoritecentral.com
> Meteorite-list mailing list
> Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com
> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Orange vous informe que cet e-mail a ete controle par l'anti-virus mail.
> Aucun virus connu a ce jour par nos services n'a ete detecte.
>
>
>
>
Received on Thu 29 Nov 2007 07:56:34 AM PST