[meteorite-list] Larry's Holbrook Holy Grail Find and BobHaag's Venus Stone

From: Jason Utas <meteoritekid_at_meteoritecentral.com>
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2007 13:55:26 -0800
Message-ID: <93aaac890702271355r721dfb9dyf688148600e93e40_at_mail.gmail.com>

Hello Dave, All,

>If indeed the Adamana meteorite is the front piece of the Holbrook, and
I'm NOT saying it is

The idea of a 'front piece' of the Holbrook mass is something that I find
completely ridiculous. Stress mechanics alone state that anything at the
front of the object would be subjected to much greater stress than the
remainder of the stone and would therefore be the first part of the stone to
fragment. There's simply no reason whatsoever for the trailing remainder of
the meteorite to so violently explode, seeing as it must have been subjected
to much lesser forces.
If, however, it were simply a small portion of a larger 'main mass' of
Holbrook that one hypothesizes must have traveled an additional number of
miles past the known termination of the strewnfield, you might have the
basis for some sort of multiple-fragmentation, the likes of which has
*never* been seen before, with at least two distribution ellipses separated
my miles of 'barren' land. I, however, find this about equally unlikely as
the previously mentioned possibility, if not more so.

>then it would have the thickest primary crust out
of any other portion of the fall.

Why? There's no reason for such a 'front piece,' even supposing it could
exist, to not fragment later into multiple pieces just as the remainder of
the fall had. In all probability, if such a 'front piece' existed, this
would most likely be a portion that broke off of it, and as such, its crust
would most likely be the same as the rest of the fall.

That said, you do seem to acknowledge the fact that it's crust does, in
general, appear to be much more thick/different in appearance than that of
Holbrook, to say nothing of the interior...

>There are pictures of original finds
that have chondrules as much as 5-7 mm in diameter.

I know. Holbrook has much larger chondrules than that of Adamana, at least
as well as can be seen on the broken surfaces.

>Also, one has to
keep in mind that it was found in a horse corral. I'm sure acidic horse
urine and different soil conditions could have some kind of effect on it
as well...IF it was.

Versus sitting in a watershed plain next to an annually torrential wash?
Different soil conditions might create a difference in weathering (though if
it is, as you say, a mere four miles away, I doubt there would be any
difference at all), but horse urine effects would be negligible at
best...corrals are used sporadically at best anyways, to say nothing of the
fact that annual rainfall.
In fact, while the horse urine would be acidic, it would take rain/moisture
to disassociate the ions in order to actually create any acidic effects -
and as we all know, when it rains in Az, it pours...and would wash all of
the acid downriver and out of the soil anyways.

>I'm just saying that I for one, am not quite ready
to throw the "half-baked" theory in the trash....yet.

Eh, I grant you that there's a small chance Adamana's a part of
Holbrook...in my opinion, very, very small.

>Actually, the Adamana Meteorite was found 11 miles from Arntz (aka
Aztec). Not quite all the way to Adamana which is 13 miles "as the
meteor flies". (I did some remeasuring). And, if the Goodwater theory
is correct, then you are only talking about 4 miles. According to the
July 26, 1912 article on the Holbrook Argus: "There was a heavy
explosion similar to that of a heavy blast followed by a fuscillade of
smaller explosions which terminated in a thunder-like rumble of
approximately two minutes in duration." In Warren Foote's Preliminary
Notes of the July 19, 1912 Meteoric Fall at Aztec, Arizona, he writes:
"It was heard in Concho, St. Joseph, Woodruff, and Pinedale, some 40
miles away. One large explosion was quickly followed by several small
ones in rapid succession."

Firstly, the strewnfield has varying descriptions in almost every paper that
I've seen. I just read a paper in which Kring stated that the strewnfield
was ~1.5 sq. miles, a writeup by the DeLanges that states that it was ~1 by
~1/2 miles. I'm looking into Farrington - a little hard for me while I'm at
school ;)

>Now it's more like 3 miles long by 1 mile wide and growing. Even Warren
Foote mentions this dimension in 1912.

Again, conflicting reports...though by now, erosion could have made the
field that large even if it hadn't been as big to start out with...that
would explain the 'growing' aspect of it I guess. In any case, I cannot
consider myself a judge, seeing as I was not there at the time of the fall,
as were several well regarded scientific figures, who gave conflicting
reports.

>Hmmm....I've never heard that before. I'd like to know where you
read/heard that information as that is interesting to me. According to
Foote: "The large and small stones, according to all answers received,
were said to be indiscriminately spread over the ground, without regard
to size. The violent disruptions near Holbrook might account for the
lack of such a separation...."

If, as you say, there truly was no separation between sizes of fragments, it
would almost certainly rule out any possibility of a larger mass having
continued much farther than the already defined strewnfield. Such a chaotic
distribution could suggest nothing other than a complete and catastrophic,
if not instantaneous atmospheric breakup. Any classic atmospheric
fragmentation would, as you know, create an organized strewnfield with
larger stones at one end and small at the other. If there is no
distribution, there must have been a very low and complete breakup - if
large fragments did not even have enough air-time to make it to one end of
the strewnfield, how would you expect another mass to proceed several miles
farther? It would have to be part of a much larger (several tens of
kilograms at the very minimum) fragment.

>In recent years, say the last 40, the larger finds that I know of have
been about in the center of the known field and on both sides of the
tracks. I and others have found many smaller ones further north and
east of these larger stones. I would like to know where the main mass
was found, but I've never been able to dig that up yet. However, I've
never read or heard anywhere that it was found at the furthest point of
the field.

I simply assumed that it was found in such a location based on all of the
arguments being put forth - if there is indeed no distribution based on
weight within the strewnfield, I see virtually no possibility for Adamana
being a part of the Holbrook fall, unless it was previously found in the
strewnfield and was later transported by people. The physics of it simply
don't work out.

>With all the numerous explosions, why not another 11 miles? Some parts
must have still been ablating after the main explosion to have more
explosions. At say, 7 miles per second (just as an aribitrary figure),
it wouldn't take long to cover that distance. There is still quite a
bit of material still missing off of Haag's aerodynamic piece too. But,
certainly not enough to make it come close to being the main mass.

Because almost every fall has numerous stages of breakup. Because even
within these falls, there is (to my knowledge) always a single strewnfield,
with very little deviation from the rule that larger stones fall at the far
end and small ones at the other.

When you say 'explosions,' you do realize that you are referring to sonic
booms in most cases, do you not? The multiple 'booms' often heard during
falls are not due to the physical breakup of the meteorite itself, but
rather to the stones' breaking of the sound barrier. Thus these multiple
detonations heard were probably due to the existence of a number of number
of stones that were large enough to retain some of their cosmic velocity for
long enough to break the sound barrier in an audible manner.
The initial large explosion heard would explain the initial sound effects of
the large body either simply passing overhead at a great velocity or
possibly it's violent fragmentation, whereas the rumbling heard afterwards
can certainly be attributed to the many fragments that must have been large
enough just after this explosion to still retain the velocity needed to
create sound effects of their own, on a much smaller scale.

>Huh? In the Holbrook Argus article, it states: "The sky was lightly
overcast with patches of high floating clouds, but immediately after the
explosion a smoky trail similar to the smoke of an automobile's exhaust
was visible. The trail disappeared in a LITTLE NORTH of east in
direction." Well, Arntz is ENE of Holbrook and Adamana is ENE of
Arntz. The strewn field and the railroad tracks are in a ENE
orientation. Drawing a line from Holbrook through Arntz takes you right
to Adamana....in fact, this line can possibly go a little bit north of
what is shown as Adamana on a topo map. (next to the railroad tracks
where the propane plant is).

And I've read other reports stating that it followed a due East
path...figures. I wasn't there, and see no way how one can decide between
your sources and mine. This path, even if followed to a ridiculous extent
(you're going to be hard pressed to find a strewnfield for a stony meteorite
that's confirmed to be this long), takes you quite a distance south of
Adamana. But this all depends on the accuracy of the reports....who could
possibly know.

Regards,
Jason

On 2/27/07, DNAndrews <dna1 at cableone.net> wrote:
>
>
>
> Jason Utas wrote:
>
> > Hello All,
> > There are a few things that separate Adamana from Holbrook in my mind...
> > The texture of the crust alone of Adamana versus that of Holbrook
> > leaves me little doubt that the two could possibly be paired.
>
> Hi Jason,
> I think you meant to say that "the two could NOT possibly be paired?
> Not trying to argue, just think a few points need to be said.
>
> > The fusion crust of Adamana is a matte black, which contrasts sharply
> > with the crust of recently found Holbrooks, which exhibit a typically
> > blue/black almost shiny crust in most cases, often liberally spread
> > with rust spots.
> > The interior tells the same story - Adamana is a uniform brown, with
> > chondrules poking out here and there. Recently found Holbrooks tend
> > to be less weathered internally, if not more externally, and their
> > dark chondrules contrast starkly with the lighter matrix, creating a
> > much more heterogeneous appearance than that of Adamana.
>
> If indeed the Adamana meteorite is the front piece of the Holbrook, and
> I'm NOT saying it is, then it would have the thickest primary crust out
> of any other portion of the fall. There are pictures of original finds
> that have chondrules as much as 5-7 mm in diameter. Also, one has to
> keep in mind that it was found in a horse corral. I'm sure acidic horse
> urine and different soil conditions could have some kind of effect on it
> as well...IF it was. I'm just saying that I for one, am not quite ready
> to throw the "half-baked" theory in the trash....yet.
>
> > The location of the find....
> > Fifteen miles is simply impossible, unless it was artificially
> > transported.
>
> Actually, the Adamana Meteorite was found 11 miles from Arntz (aka
> Aztec). Not quite all the way to Adamana which is 13 miles "as the
> meteor flies". (I did some remeasuring). And, if the Goodwater theory
> is correct, then you are only talking about 4 miles. According to the
> July 26, 1912 article on the Holbrook Argus: "There was a heavy
> explosion similar to that of a heavy blast followed by a fuscillade of
> smaller explosions which terminated in a thunder-like rumble of
> approximately two minutes in duration." In Warren Foote's Preliminary
> Notes of the July 19, 1912 Meteoric Fall at Aztec, Arizona, he writes:
> "It was heard in Concho, St. Joseph, Woodruff, and Pinedale, some 40
> miles away. One large explosion was quickly followed by several small
> ones in rapid succession."
>
> > The mapped strewnfield was roughly one mile long by a half mile wide.
>
> Now it's more like 3 miles long by 1 mile wide and growing. Even Warren
> Foote mentions this dimension in 1912.
>
> > The largest stone recovered, weighing in at ~14.5 lbs, was found at
> > the end of this ellipse.
>
> Hmmm....I've never heard that before. I'd like to know where you
> read/heard that information as that is interesting to me. According to
> Foote: "The large and small stones, according to all answers received,
> were said to be indiscriminately spread over the ground, without regard
> to size. The violent disruptions near Holbrook might account for the
> lack of such a separation...."
>
> > The possibility that anything made it farther than this stone is great
> -
>
> In recent years, say the last 40, the larger finds that I know of have
> been about in the center of the known field and on both sides of the
> tracks. I and others have found many smaller ones further north and
> east of these larger stones. I would like to know where the main mass
> was found, but I've never been able to dig that up yet. However, I've
> never read or heard anywhere that it was found at the furthest point of
> the field.
>
> > it wouldn't surprise me too greatly if a 20lber was found another
> > quarter of a mile on (it could've buried itself on impact, etc), but
> > to say that a smaller stone continued another fifteen miles beyond the
> > known end of the strewnfield is simply ridiculous,
>
> With all the numerous explosions, why not another 11 miles? Some parts
> must have still been ablating after the main explosion to have more
> explosions. At say, 7 miles per second (just as an aribitrary figure),
> it wouldn't take long to cover that distance. There is still quite a
> bit of material still missing off of Haag's aerodynamic piece too. But,
> certainly not enough to make it come close to being the main mass.
>
> > to say nothing of the fact that it is much too far north to even
> > be near the same path as the body that created the Holbrook strewnfield.
>
> Huh? In the Holbrook Argus article, it states: "The sky was lightly
> overcast with patches of high floating clouds, but immediately after the
> explosion a smoky trail similar to the smoke of an automobile's exhaust
> was visible. The trail disappeared in a LITTLE NORTH of east in
> direction." Well, Arntz is ENE of Holbrook and Adamana is ENE of
> Arntz. The strewn field and the railroad tracks are in a ENE
> orientation. Drawing a line from Holbrook through Arntz takes you right
> to Adamana....in fact, this line can possibly go a little bit north of
> what is shown as Adamana on a topo map. (next to the railroad tracks
> where the propane plant is).
>
> Anyway, I just feel more investigating needs to be done to make a
> decision whether "yea" or "nay" on the subject. Maybe Bob will someday
> have a little crumb analyzed for curiousities sake or someone will make
> another find well outside of the known strewn field.
>
> Respectfully,
> Dave
>
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Received on Tue 27 Feb 2007 04:55:26 PM PST