[meteorite-list] www.venusmeteorite.com - what are youropinions on this claim
From: Randall Gregory <randall_gregory_at_meteoritecentral.com>
Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2007 15:21:27 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <275656.74396.qm_at_web52101.mail.yahoo.com> Mr. Gallo, Thank you for your prompt reply and for also taking the time and effort to have your friend look at the photos. Maybe it's the glassy apperance of my samples that misleads a person to think they are obsidian related. My samples contain absolutely no glass and are not glassy like obsidian is. Peruvian geologists ruled-out obsidian and obsidian-related minerals very early in this analysis. If you look at the caption on the bottom of the picture, it reads: This dark well-exposed glassy unit can also be found on other locations miles away, Vitrophyre is another name for phenocryst-bearing obsidian. I now refer you to the the recent post where I have contacted a volcanologist in Hawaii. As you know, volcanologists are geologist that specialize in the study of lava, magma, and anything related to volcanos. I am looking now to volcanologists for terrestrial establishment. Unfortunately, I do not have as yet, whole rock analysis. When I return to the United States I will procure whole rock testing using INNA. Again, thank you for your reply. Randall gian paolo gallo gallo <gianpgg at hotmail.com> wrote: Hola again. Here some pictures of the Shoshone Mountain . Location: State Highway 178, ~ 4 miles east of Shoshone. Different colored (yellowish) strata are displayed but all of it is just tuff. Lake basin sediments top different flavors of tuff. The biggest crack in the wall is a nice example of normal faulting. Dense, west-dipping Dense, west-dipping vitrophyre (black band) drags students? attention. This dark, well-exposed glassy unit can be also found on other locations for miles away. Vitrophyre is another name for phenocryst-bearing obsidian----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Hola Mr. Randall . We sent your case to a geologist venezuelan friend and he said that both stones are a basaltic rich potassium magma stones, named SHOSHONITE, and they can be found in Mount Shoshone in Montana, USA, and central Andes cordillera Mountains, that is in Per?. Bolivia and Chile, Hope this help you and us to clear the subjet, because the geologist profesor friend, says that they are of terrestrial origin. Our best regards, Poalo Gallo --------------------------------- From: Randall Gregory <randall_gregory at yahoo.com> To: gian paolo gallo gallo <gianpgg at hotmail.com> CC: meteorite List <meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] www.venusmeteorite.com - what are youropinions on this claim Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2007 07:26:50 -0800 (PST) Mr. Gallo, Thank you for your reply. I am very anxious to see the pictures of the rock that you found. If you could please provide a few good close-ups taken in both natural (sunlight) and indoor flash showing details in the fusion crust and the internal matrix. I will take into account color variations. The picture on venusmeteorite.com apparently was shot indoors and mine outdoors. I used a Nikon F100 with Fuji Provia professional film. I don't expect professional photos, but I would like them to be of high quality. I am enclosing another picture of my rock and the picture in venusmeteorite.com to help you in your assessment of your rock. Please compare the two pictures noting the fusion crust and internal matrix. If at all possible, could you also provide information as to where the rock was found, why this particular rock was collected, and what do you believe it is. I will gladly hold true to my offer if indeed the rock is identical to the one on venusmeteorite.com and my rock. The $250 bucks will be immediately sent to you upon confirmation. But, I also want you to understand that your rock can't be somewhat similar, it has to be identical. If we should disagree, I will ask other members of this forum for their assessment.. My sample is absolutely identical to the first few pictures in venusmeteorite.com. He found his in Utah, I found mine in Peru. Sincerely, Randall gian paolo gallo gallo <gianpgg at hotmail.com> wrote: Saludos , Mr Randall. Greetings from Venezuela. We have found a stone here in our State, that looks like somewhat the basalt looking stone of venusmeteorites.com. We are sending you a picture of it, hope it will help you and you will help us with the 250 bucks. Best regards, Paolo Gallo, M.V. --------------------------------- From: Randall Gregory <randall_gregory at yahoo.com> To: "Sterling K. Webb" <sterling_k_webb at sbcglobal.net>,meteorite List <meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com> CC: terrace at venusmeteorite.com, Randall Gregory <r.randall.gregory at gmail.com>,Andrei Olkhovatov <olkhov at mail.ru> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] www.venusmeteorite.com - what are youropinions on this claim Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2007 00:34:45 -0800 (PST) I sincerely would like to thank all of you for your time and comments. Thank you. Please understand that there is something I need to clarify. I make no claims as to the origin of these samples. Venus, Mercury, Earth, or the twilight zone. All I said is that they are identical to the pictures of the rocks in www.venusmeteorite.com; they came from an area of a documented fall, and are unlike any rocks ever found in this region of Peru. It is unfortunate that the author of venusmeteorite.com assumed that his samples are from Venus without getting expert opinions. This past year I made numerous attempts to contact the author and all my emails have been undeliverable. He is obviously an educated person and made serious attempts to prove his claim however misdirected they were. He may have become discouraged because nobody took him seriously or the prohibitive costs of further testing. I applaud him for his efforts because he believed that he had something unique and made serious efforts to confirm that belief. It is unfortunate in his enthusiasm that he immediately thought his sample came from Venus and never sought expert opinions. Quite possibly, if someone had given him good scientific direction to positively determine if his samples were extraterrestrial then the scientific community may have benefited. It appears that much of the scientific community has been tainted by all the meteor-wrongs and other garbage. I am somewhat offended that I was directed to the Alien gem website. I've read most of the outrageous claims: "space slag", emerald meteorite, on and on... Ken, you said "Don't rely on your own conclusions, but let the evidence confirm" I couldn't agree more. I only ask for help to determine what testing I need. If anyone with a Geochemistry background could please take a look at www.actlabs.com (Canada) under the Geochemistry & Geochronology section and confirm my belief that a 4Litho research would be a suitable basic test. And under Isotopic Analysis the noble gas analysis test. They have Argon-40 - Argon-39 dating but not the Argon-40 - Argon-36 like Mr. Webb suggested. I don't want to spend thousands of dollars on useless testing. There is a Dr. Yarkov Kapusta at the facility but I don't know if he can be of assistance. I'll e-mail him and see what he thinks. I?m sure cosmic-ray trace analysis is outside their realm. ACTLABS provides analytical services for geologists and I doubt if they have any experience with meteorite analysis. But this is the best and only private source I can find. I realized a long time ago that my efforts would be fruitless trying to persuade any University or Government facility to perform testing. Why should they? They have thousands of meteorites collected from Antarctica. Simply put, what testing can definitively differentiate a rock from space and a rock from the earth? If I can get this type of testing and the results prove otherwise, then I will drop it and continue my efforts to extract the main mass, document the crater, and protect the location. Already, a team of scientist from Uruguay have been looking for the crater but were unsuccessful. I suspect there will be many others. You can see some of the problems I'm facing. The estimated to cost to excavate the crater is upwards of $65,000. I have read many many articles from some of the leading planetary scientists. I have spent countless hours searching images on the web for anything that might resemble the samples I collected. I have looked at hundreds, if not thousands of images: all types of basalt, volcanic bombs, Antarctic meteorites, meteor-wrongs, black basalt, melted basalt and whatever characteristics of meteorite identification I could find. If anyone can provide me with photos of rocks with identical characteristics to the photos on the venusmeteorite.com website or the photos I'm enclosing, I will gladly transfer $250 to your account. Trust me, you'll be saving me a ton of money and we can put this baby to bed. Randall "Sterling K. Webb" <sterling_k_webb at sbcglobal.net> wrote: Hi, Randall, Ken, Larry, List, Some points here. Venus meteorites possible? Yes. Objection: Venus' thick atmosphere. Well, in theory, Mars' thin atmosphere is sufficient to consume small objects moving from the surface at Mars' escape velocity, so in theory, they can't get here either, but somehow, they manage to do it. Moreover, examination of Mars' rocks shows that some were not subjected to any high level of shock. So, how rocks get "gently" knocked off any planet with an atmosphere is presently pretty much of a mystery. Neither do any of the Mars' rocks show any signs of an ancient (Martian) ablation before they arrived here. [I have a theory, of course, but not room enough in this margin to write it down. If anyone has a taste for plasmamagnetohydrodynamics, I'll email it to you.] The pioneering simulations of interplanetary transfer of material by impact were done by Brett Gladman* in the mid 1990's (as soon as we found out that rocks could get here from Mars). They've been repeated and improved for a decade, and yes, rocks from Venus (and Mercury) can get to Earth. In fact, these simulations (of 100,000's of random particles) show that the number of Venusites should be about half the number of Marsites. (Mercurites much less common; about 6-7% of Marsites.) *"The exchange of impact ejecta between terrestrial planets," by Brett J. Gladman, Joseph A. Burns, Martin Duncan, Pascal Lee and Harold F. Levison, Science, 1996. > Can you speculate what would a inner-planet meteorite look like? Not wanting to offend, but on the outside, all freshly fallen meteorites look very much alike. In the inside, it's a different story. What Venusian rock would look like is speculative, except that much of the Venusian surface is basaltic. So, a Venusian meteorite would most likely be a basalt, and would in many ways, greatly resemble a terrestrial rock. We have, therefore, the odd situation that the very thing that makes a rock a Venusian candidate is the thing that makes people dismiss it. Larry has put his finger right on the key difference: argon. OK, argon and neon, but mostly argon. Most of the argon in the Earth's atmosphere is argon-40. We presume that it got there by decay from the potassium-40 in the rocks of the Earth. There is a little bit of argon-36 which (we presume) is left over from the solar nebula. The terrestrial 40/36 ratio is 400-to-one. But Venus? The Venusian 40/36 ratio is one-to-one. It is inexplicable. It can't be left over from the solar nebula. Can Venus be that depleted in potassium? Or has it never had vulcanism? Both are ridiculous. It just doesn't make any sense. It's a mystery. That's data for you, bless it's heart. Moreover, Venus' surface is "recent" (meaning about half a billion years). The whole planet was surface melted, possibly to the depth of the crust; the atmospheric argon of Venus should be mostly rock-released argon-40. And argon is too heavy to be lost easily from the atmosphere. However that 50/50 ratio got there, it means that if you're going to test a Venus rock for anything, the one thing you want to do is ARGON ISOTOPES. (Well, all the "nobles." There is also an excess of neon, but not the other nobles.) It was, after all, how we recognized that those odd SNC meteorites were from Mars: their unique noble gas ratios matched the Viking data. I guarantee one thing: the noble gas ratios of a real Venus rock will be WEIRD, whatever the details. Sterling K. Webb --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- Original Message ----- From: "ken newton" To: "Randall Gregory" ; Sent: Monday, February 12, 2007 4:03 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] www.venusmeteorite.com - what are your opinions on this claim Randall, I think we would all be interested in seeing photos of the crater you found and your suspect meteorites rather than the roundabout way you began this discussion. As to whether anyone can assist you, depends if you are seeking truth or a preconceived idea. If you are really seeking the truth, I offer one piece of advice, don't rely on your own conclusions. Let the evidence (test results) as evaluated by two experts be the final say so. If the first does not lead you where you thought it might, get a second opinion of the evidence and if nothing has changed, let it drop. Sadly, there are too many persons that have obsessed over simple objects to their folly. Instead of heeding correct expert analyses they jump to the next expert hoping for a different result, critical of any who do not share their imagined expectation. "Why can't it be this rare thing or that rare thing" they ask. (see - http://tinyurl.com/34zlbf) The fruitage of obsession is frustration and paranoia. Not a good road to be on. Best Wishes on the recovery of the main mass, Ken Newton Randall Gregory wrote: > Ken, > Thank you for you reply and the link to webwrongs. Yes, it's theolitic > basalt with a melted surface. I hope you will keep an open mind and > take the time to read this. Please take a look at the Geophysical > Meteors on the web link you provided. > > I have had many communications with the author of that website, Dr. > Andrei Ol'khovatov. If you would look at the Peruvian meteorite > sighting on that website you will see that it was a mid-day witnessed > fall and the impact was recorded by 3 different seismic stations > (Arica Chile, Arequipa Peru, and Lima Peru). Dr. Mutsumi Shisutka > (Institute Geophysical Peru) and Dr. Armando Minaya UNSA (University > National San Agustin) assisted me by providing seismic recordings, and > in turn, I provided them with the actual location of the crater. The > actual location of the crater was important in helping to adjust their > equipment in refining earthquake epicenters. > > The main mass at this current time in in-extractable due to the > terrain but efforts are underway contracting with a heavy equipment > operator to bulldoze a small dirt road. I have talked with the local > government about buying a 100 hectares mining concession encompassing > the crater to protect it. When the main mass is uncovered, I'll know more. > > It took me 2 years and 6 separate expeditions to find the crater. I > lived for a time in the area of El Castillo with a family that > witnessed this event. With satellite photos, eyewitness accounts, > seismic data, detailed charts and assistance provided by the national > university I searched for the impact area. I found it and I have all > the proof. What is interesting is that some of the specimens I > collected near the crater are identical to one of the pictures in the > venusmeteorite.com. > > I went to ACTLABS in Lima, Peru to have a sample analyzed but they > lacked the equipment necessary. They told me that ACTLABS.com (Canada) > might be able to provide this analysis.The type of testing I need is > "space weathering". Specifically, solar to galactic ray tracks, oxygen > isotope fractionation patterns, radionuclide measurements, and noble > gas analysis. I would like to find a planetary geologist who will take > to time to look at a specimen and read the reports but in reality, my > expectations are low. > > I wrote to Dr. Korotev some time ago, but he too has doubts and his > area of expertise is lunar meteorites. I can tell you that some of the > rocks near the crater have a black splatter with the same > characteristics as the samples. In an area of tan to rust colored > terrain, a rock that looks like melted black plastic is unmistakable. > I talked with a Peruvian government hydrologist (Jorge Mena) that > works in this general area and he told me he has never seen rocks like > that in his 40 years in the field searching for underground aquifers. > > Can you speculate what would a inner-planet meteorite look like? Does > the fact that it fell mid-day have any significance? Would you > expect a mid-day fall? Are mid-day falls rare? And if 20 years ago > someone said that they had a meteorite that might just be from Mars, > would anyone believe them? > > I have a lot of evidence but no definitive proof that these are > meteorites or where they might have come from. I'm hoping you can help > me find the answer. I am sending a copy of this email to Dr. Korotev > in the hope that he would be kind enough to provide a introduction > to Dr. Brett Gladman or Dr. Akira Yamaguchi if possible. > > Randall > > > > > Hi Randall, > It's basalt. Here are some more meteorwrong sites (bottom half) > http://home.earthlink.net/~magellon/webwrongs.html > Best, > Ken Newton > > > > Randall Gregory wrote: > >> Has anyone seen this website and if so, what are your opinions as >> to the validity of his claims that the meteorites found are from >> Venus. And how would anyone know if a meteorite came from one of >> the inner planets? Would cosmic ray exposure and oxygen isotope >> be useful. What tests would be definitive? >> >> >> Randall >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> Have a burning question? Go to Yahoo! Answers >> >> >> and get answers from real people who know. >> >>------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> ______________________________________________ Meteorite-list mailing >> list Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com >> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list >> > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Looking for earth-friendly autos? > Browse Top Cars by "Green Rating" > > at Yahoo! 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