[meteorite-list] www.venusmeteorite.com - what are your opinions on this claim

From: Sterling K. Webb <sterling_k_webb_at_meteoritecentral.com>
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2007 20:41:30 -0600
Message-ID: <10a201c74f18$794f5480$d9342b41_at_ATARIENGINE>

Hi, Randall, Ken, Larry, List,

    Some points here.

    Venus meteorites possible? Yes.

    Objection: Venus' thick atmosphere. Well, in theory,
Mars' thin atmosphere is sufficient to consume small
objects moving from the surface at Mars' escape velocity,
so in theory, they can't get here either, but somehow,
they manage to do it.

    Moreover, examination of Mars' rocks shows that
some were not subjected to any high level of shock.
So, how rocks get "gently" knocked off any planet with
an atmosphere is presently pretty much of a mystery.
Neither do any of the Mars' rocks show any signs of
an ancient (Martian) ablation before they arrived here.
    [I have a theory, of course, but not room enough
in this margin to write it down. If anyone has a taste
for plasmamagnetohydrodynamics, I'll email it to you.]

    The pioneering simulations of interplanetary transfer
of material by impact were done by Brett Gladman* in
the mid 1990's (as soon as we found out that rocks could
get here from Mars). They've been repeated and improved
for a decade, and yes, rocks from Venus (and Mercury)
can get to Earth. In fact, these simulations (of 100,000's
of random particles) show that the number of Venusites
should be about half the number of Marsites. (Mercurites
much less common; about 6-7% of Marsites.)
    *"The exchange of impact ejecta between terrestrial
planets," by Brett J. Gladman, Joseph A. Burns, Martin
Duncan, Pascal Lee and Harold F. Levison, Science, 1996.

> Can you speculate what would a inner-planet meteorite look like?

    Not wanting to offend, but on the outside, all freshly fallen
meteorites look very much alike. In the inside, it's a different
story. What Venusian rock would look like is speculative, except
that much of the Venusian surface is basaltic. So, a Venusian
meteorite would most likely be a basalt, and would in many
ways, greatly resemble a terrestrial rock. We have, therefore,
the odd situation that the very thing that makes a rock a
Venusian candidate is the thing that makes people dismiss it.

    Larry has put his finger right on the key difference: argon.
OK, argon and neon, but mostly argon. Most of the argon
in the Earth's atmosphere is argon-40. We presume that it
got there by decay from the potassium-40 in the rocks of
the Earth. There is a little bit of argon-36 which (we presume)
is left over from the solar nebula. The terrestrial 40/36 ratio
is 400-to-one. But Venus?

    The Venusian 40/36 ratio is one-to-one. It is inexplicable.
It can't be left over from the solar nebula. Can Venus be that
depleted in potassium? Or has it never had vulcanism? Both
are ridiculous. It just doesn't make any sense. It's a mystery.
That's data for you, bless it's heart. Moreover, Venus' surface
is "recent" (meaning about half a billion years). The whole
planet was surface melted, possibly to the depth of the crust;
the atmospheric argon of Venus should be mostly rock-released
argon-40. And argon is too heavy to be lost easily from the
atmosphere.

    However that 50/50 ratio got there, it means that if you're
going to test a Venus rock for anything, the one thing you
want to do is ARGON ISOTOPES. (Well, all the "nobles."
There is also an excess of neon, but not the other nobles.)

    It was, after all, how we recognized that those odd SNC
meteorites were from Mars: their unique noble gas ratios matched
the Viking data. I guarantee one thing: the noble gas ratios of a
real Venus rock will be WEIRD, whatever the details.


Sterling K. Webb
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
----- Original Message -----
From: "ken newton" <magellon at earthlink.net>
To: "Randall Gregory" <randall_gregory at yahoo.com>;
<meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com>
Sent: Monday, February 12, 2007 4:03 PM
Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] www.venusmeteorite.com - what are your
opinions on this claim


Randall,
I think we would all be interested in seeing photos of the crater you
found and your suspect meteorites rather than the roundabout way you
began this discussion. As to whether anyone can assist you, depends if
you are seeking truth or a preconceived idea.

If you are really seeking the truth, I offer one piece of advice, don't
rely on your own conclusions. Let the evidence (test results) as
evaluated by two experts be the final say so. If the first does not lead
you where you thought it might, get a second opinion of the evidence and
if nothing has changed, let it drop.

Sadly, there are too many persons that have obsessed over simple objects
to their folly. Instead of heeding correct expert analyses they jump to
the next expert hoping for a different result, critical of any who do
not share their imagined expectation. "Why can't it be this rare thing
or that rare thing" they ask. (see - http://tinyurl.com/34zlbf) The
fruitage of obsession is frustration and paranoia. Not a good road to
be on.

Best Wishes on the recovery of the main mass,
Ken Newton



Randall Gregory wrote:

> Ken,
> Thank you for you reply and the link to webwrongs. Yes, it's theolitic
> basalt with a melted surface. I hope you will keep an open mind and
> take the time to read this. Please take a look at the Geophysical
> Meteors on the web link you provided.
>
> I have had many communications with the author of that website, Dr.
> Andrei Ol'khovatov. If you would look at the Peruvian meteorite
> sighting on that website you will see that it was a mid-day witnessed
> fall and the impact was recorded by 3 different seismic stations
> (Arica Chile, Arequipa Peru, and Lima Peru). Dr. Mutsumi Shisutka
> (Institute Geophysical Peru) and Dr. Armando Minaya UNSA (University
> National San Agustin) assisted me by providing seismic recordings, and
> in turn, I provided them with the actual location of the crater. The
> actual location of the crater was important in helping to adjust their
> equipment in refining earthquake epicenters.
>
> The main mass at this current time in in-extractable due to the
> terrain but efforts are underway contracting with a heavy equipment
> operator to bulldoze a small dirt road. I have talked with the local
> government about buying a 100 hectares mining concession encompassing
> the crater to protect it. When the main mass is uncovered, I'll know more.
>
> It took me 2 years and 6 separate expeditions to find the crater. I
> lived for a time in the area of El Castillo with a family that
> witnessed this event. With satellite photos, eyewitness accounts,
> seismic data, detailed charts and assistance provided by the national
> university I searched for the impact area. I found it and I have all
> the proof. What is interesting is that some of the specimens I
> collected near the crater are identical to one of the pictures in the
> venusmeteorite.com.
>
> I went to ACTLABS in Lima, Peru to have a sample analyzed but they
> lacked the equipment necessary. They told me that ACTLABS.com (Canada)
> might be able to provide this analysis.The type of testing I need is
> "space weathering". Specifically, solar to galactic ray tracks, oxygen
> isotope fractionation patterns, radionuclide measurements, and noble
> gas analysis. I would like to find a planetary geologist who will take
> to time to look at a specimen and read the reports but in reality, my
> expectations are low.
>
> I wrote to Dr. Korotev some time ago, but he too has doubts and his
> area of expertise is lunar meteorites. I can tell you that some of the
> rocks near the crater have a black splatter with the same
> characteristics as the samples. In an area of tan to rust colored
> terrain, a rock that looks like melted black plastic is unmistakable.
> I talked with a Peruvian government hydrologist (Jorge Mena) that
> works in this general area and he told me he has never seen rocks like
> that in his 40 years in the field searching for underground aquifers.
>
> Can you speculate what would a inner-planet meteorite look like? Does
> the fact that it fell mid-day have any significance? Would you
> expect a mid-day fall? Are mid-day falls rare? And if 20 years ago
> someone said that they had a meteorite that might just be from Mars,
> would anyone believe them?
>
> I have a lot of evidence but no definitive proof that these are
> meteorites or where they might have come from. I'm hoping you can help
> me find the answer. I am sending a copy of this email to Dr. Korotev
> in the hope that he would be kind enough to provide a introduction
> to Dr. Brett Gladman or Dr. Akira Yamaguchi if possible.
>
> Randall
>
>
>
>
> Hi Randall,
> It's basalt. Here are some more meteorwrong sites (bottom half)
> http://home.earthlink.net/~magellon/webwrongs.html
> Best,
> Ken Newton
>
>
>
> Randall Gregory wrote:
>
>> Has anyone seen this website and if so, what are your opinions as
>> to the validity of his claims that the meteorites found are from
>> Venus. And how would anyone know if a meteorite came from one of
>> the inner planets? Would cosmic ray exposure and oxygen isotope
>> be useful. What tests would be definitive?
>>
>>
>> Randall
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Received on Mon 12 Feb 2007 09:41:30 PM PST