[meteorite-list] Samples

From: Bob Evans <bobe5531_at_meteoritecentral.com>
Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2007 20:26:35 -0600
Message-ID: <008101c848f9$11ac4be0$0201a8c0_at_yourae066c3a9b>

Don,
You touched a nerve there. I hate it when I see an incredible oriented
meteorite and then realize that it has been cut or ground for a window.
I ve seen a couple recently that I would love to have in my collection and
was willing to pay top dollar until I seen the cut ( even on the backside )
and then the value dropped by 80 % in my eyes.
All dealers should really know what they are doing before they ruin an
oriented meteorite.

Bob
----- Original Message -----
From: "Don Rawlings" <psc2410xi at yahoo.com>
To: <meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com>
Sent: Thursday, December 27, 2007 8:13 PM
Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Samples


> Doug and listees:
>
> I find it amazing that some dealers are only too
> willing to destroy the beauty of an oriented meteorite
> which is obviously a common type to get it classified
> and then refuse to get a rare meteorite classified
> because they think it "looks like" something someone
> else has.
>
> How is the collector, or his/her heirs, going to sell
> that rare meteorite that was never classified? It may
> seem like a bargain at the time to buy a field
> classified meteorite but there will come a time when
> it will most likely be considered worthless in the
> secondary market.
>
> Your advise is certainly sound.
>
> Don
>
> --- mexicodoug <mexicodoug at aol.com> wrote:
>
>> Hi Tim,
>>
>> OK, I guess the first thing I assumed (and possibly
>> Mike did, too) was since
>> you called it a fall it was like Gao-Guenie: a
>> witnessed fall.
>>
>> But since you are apparently discussing an
>> unwitnessed fall from a hot
>> desert a.k.a. for us, dense collecting area (don't
>> know where else to get
>> all those Mars rocks), the best thing to do is to
>> plot the strewn field. In
>> the contemporary world that seems so difficult since
>> we can't even get
>> location information for one stone that has already
>> been through maybe
>> several hands.
>>
>> So I only see two options or combinations between
>> them:
>>
>> 1) Don't buy anything that is not documented.
>> Discourage others supporting
>> this.
>> 2) Buy everything under an agreement of trust from a
>> reputable seller and
>> submit the batch to a scientist and let him/her
>> minimize the guesswork and
>> possibly minor tests if doubts come up. Or in a
>> positive light, to convince
>> the scientist to say the batch is the same material
>> or cull out what is not
>> to arrive at the TKW.
>>
>> If you want to by Mars without any formal
>> classification, in the form of
>> many pebbles, there is no solution except 2),
>> whether you go it alone or
>> spread the risk with partners. Because you would
>> now be representing a rock
>> that has been subjectively field "classified".
>> While some people can live
>> with this, others can't. If you can at least get
>> locational information for
>> your specimens, you don't have to give the full
>> 20/20 - or anything for that
>> matter if enough to meet the combined 20/20 is in
>> curation as vouchers for
>> the group after the naming of your material - if a
>> scientist agrees to
>> classify and pair it to an existing classification.
>> This is the motivation
>> of the newer guidelines.
>>
>> Some people get mad about subjective classification,
>> because they broke the
>> ground on the sample and "invested", while others
>> are pissed that it is
>> obvious and common sense dictates the material is
>> what it is (arguments
>> like, bought from the same trader, got from the same
>> nomad, found together):
>> with no further support except subjective judgements
>> perceived as strong and
>> well founded.
>>
>> This latter may be true, but that still doesn't
>> remove the reality. Only if
>> the specimens fit together can this be foolproof.
>> Even an expert meteorite
>> hunter scientist can find or purchase a handful of
>> meteorites in the field
>> from a known fall and every once in a while a
>> terrestrial rock can sneak in
>> that has you fooled like a baby. Let me say it has
>> happened to me, and it
>> is a very frustrating and humbling experience. Some
>> time I'll tell the
>> story of a meteorwrong that saw me coming it was a
>> remarkable fraud that
>> would surprise anyone - the best scientists, at
>> their first glance,
>> included.
>>
>> So, the reality is also that unless each rock is
>> carefully studied, nothing
>> can avoid ocassional duds getting mixed in. Not to
>> mention incorrect
>> pairing of similr meteorites. Luckily in the sandy
>> desert this isn't as
>> great a problem as areas with varieties of rocks.
>>
>> How Unsettling, How Disagreeable to the innocent
>> collector and enthusiast,
>> scientist alike- but true. This is rthe dirty
>> laundry of meteorite
>> collecting. Hopefully someone has a better
>> suggestion, but I wouldn't hold
>> my breath unless I were an alchemist capable of
>> ethically transmuting
>> batches of meteorites ;-) There is no free lunch...
>> and no one can make
>> promises for something that hasn't been done. (Or
>> can they?)
>>
>> This whole thing gets sticky, when, you buy
>> meteorites from the literally
>> same batch that another person has already
>> classified. Sure: you may have
>> the same material, but then again, just because the
>> original buyer may not
>> have demanded 100% error proffing during the
>> classification and is selling
>> some stones under the classification he got, doesn't
>> make yours any more
>> paired to the ones that were used for the typing
>> work.
>>
>> Best wishes, Doug
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Timothy Heitz" <midwest at meteorman.org>
>> To: "mexicodoug" <mexicodoug at aol.com>;
>> <meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com>
>> Sent: Thursday, December 27, 2007 12:47 PM
>> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Samples
>>
>>
>> > Doug,
>> >
>> > This is what I'm thinking.
>> >
>> > Lets say I bought 50 Mars stones and the biggest
>> was only 8 grams, now
>> > what?
>> >
>> > I'm thinking what do I do now Doug?
>> >
>> >
>> > Mike Farmer brings up a good point tens of
>> thousands of Gao stones, and
>> > why
>> > dont cut them or classify all of them! Same with
>> Canyon Diablo.
>> >
>> >
>> > Tim
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > ----- Original Message -----
>> > From: "mexicodoug" <mexicodoug at aol.com>
>> > To: <meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com>
>> > Sent: Thursday, December 27, 2007 12:16 PM
>> > Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Samples
>> >
>> >
>> > Tim,
>> > I give up, what are you thinking - to sell them
>> unclassified except for a
>> > 2
>> > gram stone and then give a scientist 0.4 grams in
>> exchange for classifying
>> > the entire fall? Naughty naughty
>> > Doug
>> >
>> > ----- Original Message -----
>> > From: "Timothy Heitz" <midwest at meteorman.org>
>> > To: "Timothy Heitz" <midwest at meteorman.org>;
>> "Andreas Gren"
>> > <info at meteoritenhaus.de>; "'Peter A Shugar'"
>> <pshugar at clearwire.net>
>> > Cc: <meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com>
>> > Sent: Thursday, December 27, 2007 12:09 PM
>> > Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Samples
>> >
>> >
>> > What if you had 20 stones all around 2 to10 grams
>> each all from the same
>> > fall?
>> >
>> > Tim
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > ----- Original Message -----
>> > From: "Timothy Heitz" <midwest at meteorman.org>
>> > To: "Andreas Gren" <info at meteoritenhaus.de>;
>> "'Peter A Shugar'"
>> > <pshugar at clearwire.net>
>> > Cc: <meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com>
>> > Sent: Thursday, December 27, 2007 11:55 AM
>> > Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Samples
>> >
>> >
>> >
>>
> === message truncated ===
>
>
>
>
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Received on Thu 27 Dec 2007 09:26:35 PM PST