[meteorite-list] More Muck from Paul

From: E.P. Grondine <epgrondine_at_meteoritecentral.com>
Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2007 09:37:37 -0700 (PDT)
Message-ID: <277380.91064.qm_at_web36913.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Hi all -

Sorry for the diversion from meteorites to impacts.
Why?

What you're being treated to here is the heated
repetition by Paul of the arguments against man having
arrived in the Americas before Clovis as well as those
arguments against a catastrophe.

We've already been through the use of Hibbens data by
other catastrophists who had imaginary catastrophic
physical processes, and the reaction by the scientific
community.

We now move on to the field of anthropology. Hibbens
was the first to discover pre-Clovis points (at
Sandia), and thus was particularly attacked by those
who posited no earlier peoples than those who produced
the Clovis points.

Unfortunately for the Clovis First argument, there are
sites with hard dates showing pre-Clovis (Meadowcroft
and Bluefish Cave sites for the Iroquoian peoples; and
Pedra Furada for the Savanah River peoples). But these
artifacts and radio-carbon dates are not the deciding
point: the undeniable and hard mitochondrial DNA
evidence in the remaining peoples must be the result
of several crossings at times well before Clovis.

Back now to the Fairbank muck deposit: I WAS WRONG. I
MADE A MISTAKE. AN ERROR.

Clearly, the deposits which Hibbens observed at
Fairbanks came from the sudden ice melt following this
impact event:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f1GCgOI3B1o

But with this muck now accounted for, I am left trying
to locate recovered physical evidence of the impact
mega-tsunami which the Lenape described. (The
following account has been adapted to modern usage
from the one preserved in the Walum Olum, the ancient
history of the Lenape people.):

1. Long ago there was a Mighty Snake [comet], and
beings evil to men.
2. This Mighty Snake [comet] hated those who were
there,
(and) he greatly disquieted those whom he hated.
3. He harmed all things, he injured all things,
and all were not in peace.
4. Driven from their homes, the men fought with this
murderer.
5. The Mighty Snake [comet] firmly resolved to harm
the men.
6. The Mighty Snake [comet] brought three persons
[fragments?],
he brought a monster [impact],
he brought rushing water [an impact mega-tsunami].
7. Between the hills the water rushed and rushed,
dashing through and through, destroying much.
8. Nanabush, the Strong White One, Grandfather of
beings, Grandfather of men, was on Turtle Island.

While "Turtle Island" has certain allegorical aspects
, it is strange to see the turtle play such an
essential role in Lenape legend. Turtles are reptiles,
and for the most part are unable to generate internal
heat to warm their bodies, which limits their range to
temperate climates; there are and were none of these
in the far north of the Lenape people's original
homeland. The only possible exception here may have
been sea turtles, which thrive in warm water: perhaps
the Japanese Current provided warm water to coastal
Alaska, and "Turtle Island" refers to coastal Alaska
before the end of the last Ice Age. (I also need to
mention here that the Great Turtle allegory survived
among the peoples of Shanxi, China.)

9. There he was walking and creating:
and as he passed by,
he created the turtle [skin boats?].
10. Beings and men all went forth,
they walked in the floods and shallow waters,
down stream there in the turtle [skin boats?].
11. There were many monster fishes, which ate some of
them.
12. The Great Mind's daughter came,
and helped with her canoe [wooden boat]:
she helped all, as they came and came.
13. Thus Nanabush, Nanabush, the Grandfather of all,
the Grandfather of beings, the Grandfather of men,
became the Grandfather of the turtle [skin boats?].
14. The men were then together on the Great Turtle
[the Earth], like turtles.
15. Frightened on the Great Turtle [the Earth],
they prayed that what was spoiled should be restored.
16. The water ran off, the earth dried, the lakes were
at rest,
all was silent, and the Mighty Snake [comet] departed.

Whether these impacts were the cause of the end of the
Ice Age or just coincidental to it is a hotly debated
topic. Whatever the cause, the climate did begin to
change.

Part III
1. After the rushing waters [had finished],
 the Lenape of the [Sea] Turtle were close together,
living together there in hollow houses..
2. It froze where they lived, it snowed where they
lived, it stormed where they lived, it was cold where
they lived.
3. At this northern place they spoke favorably
of mild, cool (lands), with many deer and buffaloes.
4. As they journeyed, some being strong, and others
rich, they separated into house-builders and hunters;
5. The strongest, the most united, the purest, were
the hunters.
6. The hunters showed themselves at the north, at the
east, at the south, at the west.

Let's look at Hibbens description of Chitna Bay:

"On one particular rainy, dark afternoon, we were
assisting one of the paleontologists in excavating the
remains of an Alaskan lion-a great, striped beast with
long fangs, slightly reminiscent of a Bengal tiger. He
looked like a nasty customer in death, even though he
was represented only by scattered bones in the black
muck. As we sought for the lower jaw of the lion in a
newly revealed surface of muck, we found our evidence
of man-a flint point still frozen solid in the muck
bank.

"Its position was about NINETY FEET BELOW THE ORIGINAL
SURFACE. We photographed it in place, then removed it
from the frozen ground, eagerly held it up, and turned
it over for inspection. We washed the clinging muck
from it in the muddy water beneath our feet. It was of
pink stone, finely chipped and gracefully shaped, and
undoubtedly made by the hand of man."

Paul cited to me a "re-examination" of the site, which
bears no resemblance to the one Hibbens described:

Also, in 1978, archaeologists studied the location of
a site along the southern shore of Chinitna Bay
between Coffin Creek and Sea Otter Point, where Hibben
(1943) claimed to have found a Paleo-Indian point in
his "muck deposits? (Myers 1980). Using his
photographs,
they were able to relocate his site. Instead of any
tsunami deposits, they found ?...marine muds and salt
marsh deposits which are capped by a layer of peat
and, in some locations, by colluvial sediments.?
Within these sediments they found ?one or more woody
peats or paleosols...?, of which one was the ?humus
stratum?, from which Hibben (1943) reported to have
found cultural material. They found that the layer of
?muck?, which was reported by Hibben (1943), at
this site, likely consists of a stratum of oxidized
marine muds and salt marsh deposits.

In situ wood samples from a blue-grey clay,which
underlay Hibben?s cultural stratum, yielded two C-14
dates;
1. a date of 375+/-120 radiocarbon years: 1575 A.D.
(GX-5655) and
2. a date of 300 +/-130 radiocarbon years: 1650 A.D.
(GX-5656)
(Myer 1980). Neither the early man occupation, mammoth
remains,nor any Pleistocene sediments capable of
containing them were found where Hibben (1943) stated
that he found them."

The problem here is that no large cats were living in
the area either 1575 A.D. or 1650 A.D. So obviously
the spot this team examined could not have been the
location where the remains were recovered.

E.P. Grondine
Man and Impact in the Americas
"geopoetry"! raves Paul Abbott





       
____________________________________________________________________________________
Pinpoint customers who are looking for what you sell.
http://searchmarketing.yahoo.com/
Received on Wed 22 Aug 2007 12:37:37 PM PDT