AW: [meteorite-list] RE: Doing the rounds - Part II

From: Martin Altmann <altmann_at_meteoritecentral.com>
Date: Sat May 6 22:22:46 2006
Message-ID: <011c01c67148$e592e070$4f41fea9_at_name86d88d87e2>

Hola Sterling,

Back again, in the last email (Part I.) I forgot to mention concerning the
maps based on and/or accompagnying Beda Venerabilis (673-753), that he wrote
about the shape of the Earth, not only that it is "rotunda" (round), but
explicitely that it is a "pila" = a ball.
 
Let's start with some pictures.
http://kuerzer.de/Karl
Look what that guy, who is most probably Charlemagne (748 - 814 AD) holds in
his left hand.
This bronze statuette stems from mid-9th century.
...and this one. Henri III. (1017-1056)
http://kuerzer.de/HeinrichIII
Pic ca. 1040 (Staats- und Universit?tsbibliothek Bremen, Ms. b. 21, fol.3v))
Ooops and here, everything full with that stuff, when emperor Henry II. And
his wife Kunigunde are crowned by Christ.
http://kuerzer.de/HeinrichII
Pic from 1007 or 1012 AD (Bayrische Staatsbibliothek, CIm 4452, fol 2r)

They have all no frisbees in their hands but balls!!

In the Holy Roman Empire (from 800 on) to the equipment of a ruler belongs
as symbol for his secular power a ball representing the globe. Have to look
for the English translation, in German it's the Imperial Apple....ha,
dictionary says: orb. (sounds round to me).
Stems from the antique roman emperors, who had as an attribute for ther
universal power also a ball, which wasn't the terrestrial globe, but the
entire sphere of heavens.
The mediaeval orb now, represents the Earth and not anymore the whole
universe, and it has a cross planted on top.

Now to the texts. Well, I'm not a specialist and have no clues, whether
there were earlier manuscripts in the Irish monasteries,
in central Europe after a gap most manuscripts appear from 800 on.
There wasn't a special interest in science and astronomy as later, when from
12th on, the massive load of knowledge intruded from Islamic Spain,
but then there were already several texts with classic ancient times
knowledge circulating, all stating the Earth to be a globe.
Church was the only institution of literature, even the emperors were
illiterates.

The most reproduced and copied texts (sometimes in very pricy and precious
illustrated codices) were the astronomical poems of Aratos of Solei (310-245
B.C) and Hyginus (ca. 64 B.C - 10 AD.), mostly found together
and the commentary of the already mentioned Macrobius to "Scipio's Dream".
Most other astronomical texts are about calendaric calculations (computus).
Other ancient texts were already translated earlier to Latin,
like for instance the geography of Ptolemy or Platon's "Timaios"
(Chalcidius), both translated in 5th century, but no reception is found for
that period of Charlemagne. (and for the reception of Pliny and Martianus
Capella, I have no clues).

Aratos' Phaenomena and Hyginus' Poeticon Astronmicon are often found
together in the manuscripts, both are didactic poems, explaining the
positions of the circles, ecliptic and the size and position of each
constellation + the number of stars. Aratos says nothing about the shape of
the Earth
(English text of Aratus:
http://www.fillingthesky.com/id82.html ),

but Hyginus. Here in Chapter VIII you find the round Earth.
http://www.forumromanum.org/literature/astronomia1.html

Some pics:
British Library, MS Harley 647 - I guess shortly after 800, can't find the
date.
http://www.almaleh.com/images/hyginus5.jpg
Can't find the Aratos of Leiden (830-840), which is the most beautiful
painted one...
Aratos used Eudoxos of Knidos "Mirror", Hyginus based on Aratos. (Famous
Cicero also translated the Greek Aratos).

Hyginus and Aratos where so popular, that they were copied and printed
continuously until mid 17th century.

Boethius (480-524), I forgot, who according Theoderic translated into Latin:
Pythagoras, Ptolemy, Aristoteles, Euclid, Nicomachus, Plato and was hence of
course no flat-Earthener in his own works, which were known and copied at
those times and which were, which is exceptional for that epoch even
translated into German by Notker (950-1022).

Remarkable also is the geographical work of the Irish monk Dicuil which he
wrote 825, the "De Mensura Orbis Terrae", basing on the "Mesuratio Orbis",
(which Teheoderic II. ordered 435, wherefrom also a copy made it to
Charlemagne's court and which was used earlier by Godescale) and where
Dicuil also used Plinius, Isidor, Paulus Orosius. It describes not only the
continents, it contains also a determination of the geographical latitude of
the Tyrrhenic Sea.
 
A special analogy or image to explain the shape of the Earth and how it
floats in the center of the spheres, is the analogy with the egg.
The Earth hangs quiet in the middle of the speres like the yolk in the egg
white and the egg white in the eggshell. And we are talking not about eggs
sunny side up.
This very popular allegory will follow you through the complete mediaeval
epoch. Already Boethius/Notker has it, as well as Beda venerabilis or
Wandalbert de Pruem (9th. Century) and you'll find it not only in
cosmographic manuscripts, but also in treatises about the biblical genesis
and later in non-Latin popular sermons (e.g. Berthold of Regensburg) or the
non-Latin versions following the Elucidarius-tradition (Honorious of Autun,
1100) or the Book Sidrach.
This allegory was used already by the Fathers, by Basilius (330-379).
Other pictures for the shape of the Earth used were the apple or the ball.
Btw to hush the in mediaeval epoch unknown Cosmas,
Fathers, who had a round world too were: Augustinus (of Hippo) we had
already and Ambrosius of Mailand (340-397), two of the four most important
latin or western Fathers (other two are Gregor I. and Hieronymus).
Other early round-Earthler are Paulus Orosius (385-420), Jordanes (died 552)

Hence, Sterling, we get the result, that even in the times before the first
contact with the Islamic science, it was out of question, that the Earth was
a ball. Also the classical evidences for the ball shape where known at Beda
Venerabilis times. That with diminishing geographical latitudes the Northern
constellations sink to the horizon, the disappearing ship on horizon and
that the shadow of the Earth at lunar eclipses is always round (the later 2
proofs I guess stem originally from Plinius?).
These evidences you will find finely explained by miniatures e.g. in the
widely known Liber Floridus by Lambert of St.Otmer in 1120.

I read also that in the Scandinavian, Nordic texts of those times not a
single record for a flat-Earth can be found.

Another non literal written proof are the planispheric astrolabes and the
texts about.
And here we are at a point of time, where the first Arabian texts were
translated to Latin and were spread in Europe.
That type of astrolabe is really ingenious it was THE astronomical universal
instrument and calculator in mediaeval times.
On one plane steorographically the celestial globe with all its circles and
coordinate scales (and some stars) is projected together with the horizontal
(azimuthal) grid for the observer. Sky is movable over the azimuth grid.
Result, cause in that type of projection all angles stay the same, you have
an analogous computer, with which you can simulate the position of the sky
for any moment you want and without doing maths, you get out all relevant
positions you need. On the back you have a calendar and a visor, hence you
can measure the hights of the Sun or the stars, to set the turnable sky on
front at the actual position, enabling you to read the time of day and
hundred functions more.
This astrolabe simply does NOT work with a flat world. Because you have to
project the horizontal system it has to be constructed extra for the
geographical latitude of the observer.
An atrophied version of the astrolabe are those nowadays so popular movable
circular star maps, e.g. the "Miller planisphere".
Well, to suspect the users to believe in a flat Earth would be unfair.

It's easy to draw, as all circles stays circles you need only a ruler, a
pair of compasses and a the mediaeval construction's instructions were
written step by step for dummies with out mathematical knowledge
(but of course mentioning, that one has to know - some also how to find -
one's geographical latitude first).

First constructions instructions in Latin wrote Herman the Lame of
Reichenau, 1013-1054,
first Latin instruction for the use of the astrolabe wrote Gerbert
d'Aurillac, 950 - 1003, the later pope Sylvester II, who studied at the
Islamic universities of Sevilla and Cordoba.
Both treatises were manifold copied, until in 13th century more astrolabe
texts came to Europe.

This is now the period, the second half of the 10th century, where the first
Arabian texts from Spain were translated.
I think I don't have to continue, as the Islamic savants all had a round
globe and the large mass of Islamic authors and European authors following
them would lead to a whole encyclopaedia of names and sources.

Only some words to that
"short and sketchy account of the Ptolemaic system", you mentioned.
It is the "Tractus de Sphaera" of John of Hollywood (Sacrobosco, ca.1195 -
1256) an English savant at the university of Paris.
Mainly it is a mere excerpt from Ptolemy Almagest/Megale Syntax.
(Ptolemy was available before and translated twice to Latin, once from Greek
by an unknown author from Sicily in the middle of the 12th century, once
from Arabic by Gerard of Cremona in 1175).
Among other things, he describes the arrangement of the circles and the
climatic zones on the terrestrial globe, lists the above mentioned
evidences, tells about Eratosthenes. Nothing new for those times.
BUT just because it was such a simple and short text, it had an enormous
reception. Only a decade after composition (1220-30) it became THE standard
schoolbook for astronomy on European universities.
Studies in mediaeval times were divided in 2 parts. The basic part of the
trivium (grammar, dialectic&logic, rhetoric) and the continuative part of
the quadrivium (arithmetic, geometrie, astronomy, music)
And each and every European student of the quadrivium had to memorise
Sacrobosco's Sphaera.
It was nothing else than the most copied, most widespread astronomical text
in mediaeval times. It was printed still in the 17th century.
At 1350 it was even translated by Konrad from Megenberg into German.
Monopoly to the universities had the Catholic Church.

Resume. Nobody throughout the whole mediaeval epoch seriously stated that
the Earth would be a flat disk.
Not only that Church never had any problems with a round world, it was no
institution else than the Church, who propagated and taught the model of a
round globe.
The flat-world is a myth, a legend of modern times.

Of course there where the crusades, the reconquista, the pogroms against
Jews, the persuasion of heretics,
But parallely on the field of science, religion didn't matter to the Church.
Ambitious the antique knowledge and the Islamic texts were collected and
adepted, often with the help of Jewish translators. Such Islamic authors
like Al Battani, as-Sufi, Thabit Ibn Qurra and many others were authorities
for the scientific Latin literature and in scientific things, the Church was
quite liberal.
Take the monk Virgil, who was officially accused because of his position in
the antipodes-question, later they made him to a bishop.

Problems church had with the heliocentric model,
but funny enough Copernicus was attacked firstly by protestants and not by
catholics.
Catholic savants didn't use Copernicus model, because it was complicate, as
Copernicus used so many auxiliary circles to get the computed positions of
the planets closer to the real ones,
and because it gave worse accurate positions than the old epicyclic
geocentric model.
Later catholic astronomers also used Kepler's model, although it was
heliocentric.

And finally I can't see what navigation added to that question or influenced
Copernicus, Brahe, Kepler.
Wasn't it 1760+ when Harrison built his famous clocks and finally the
navigators could pinpoint the longitude?

Copernicus despite the step forward, was of course a child of his time. He
knew the astronomical literature from those times and from the traditions I
mentioned, methodically he borrowed from al-Zarquali and Thabit, perhaps he
had even a Latin translation of the Arabian heliocentrist, whose name
doesn't come to my mind at present.
And remember Kepler, who spend so many years to collect weather data to find
the correlation with the horoscope; weather forecasts by astrology is a
complex, where hundreds of texts exist from mediaeval times.


For me the real emancipation from ancient and islamic astronomy starts with
Tycho Brahe, who as first perceived that large scale and fixed mounted
instruments together with the use of accurate clocks (and the that was
accidentally the time, when mechanical clocks became accurate - the use of
clocks in astronomy he learned from his mentor Wilhelm IV of Kassel),
Are necessary to obtain exact observations.
(humm, shall I tell, that he wrote also a treatise about the different
astrological systems of houses?).

O.k. - that was it, sorry if it was off-topic,
but maybe it was interesting.
Buckleboo!
Martin

 
 
  
-----Urspr?ngliche Nachricht-----
Von: meteorite-list-bounces_at_meteoritecentral.com
[mailto:meteorite-list-bounces_at_meteoritecentral.com] Im Auftrag von Sterling
K. Webb
Gesendet: Freitag, 5. Mai 2006 07:53
An: Meteorite-list_at_meteoritecentral.com; Martin Altmann; 'Rob McCafferty'
Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] RE: Doing the rounds

Martin, List,

Martin wrote:
> ...recently I read in two independent articles that in mediaeval
> times people would have thought and church taught, that the
> Earth would be a flat disk, cause a round world would have
> been inconsistent with the bible. What an incredible rubbish!!
> (that prejudice about the disk firstly appeared in 17th century).

    Well, Martin, I hate to tell you, but it is NOT TRUE that it is a
modern prejudice that the Church taught that the world was flat.
The Early Father Lactantius wrote extensively against the rotundity
of the Earth from 302 AD to 323 AD and promoted a flat Earth
with a "box lid" of the heavens over it, the "Tabernacle Earth." By
the mid-Fourth century, the vast majority if the patristic fathers
were opposed to a spherical Earth, a long list: Cyril of Jerusalem,
Diodorus of Tarsus, Philoponus, St. Jerome... But the chief
promulgator of Flat-Earthism was Cosmas.
    Cosmas Indicopleustes ('India-voyager') of Alexandria was a
Greek sailor in the early 6th century who traveled to Ethiopia,
India and Sri Lanka. He then became a monk and before 550 AD
wrote a strange book, copiously illustrated. There can be few books
which have attracted more derision than the Christian Topography
of Cosmas Indicopleustes. It advances the idea that the world is flat,
and that the heavens form the shape of a box with a curved lid.
The author cites passages of scripture (inaccurately) to support his
thesis, and attempts to argue down the idea of a spherical earth by
stigmatizing it as 'pagan.' Cosmas was basically a poorly-educated
crank (internet-style) but through him Christianity was solidified into
supporting the idea of the flat-earth.
    In defense, let it be said that Christians and pagans did not as
such hold different views about the shape of the world. It was
a subject on which there was no certainty of knowledge for the
common man of the ancient world. It was "cutting edge," like
Relativity, and as little understood. And by the fourth century,
knowledge was decaying away at a rapid rate, without any more
help from Christians than from any of a host of causes.
    Cosmas' book is not without some value. There was trade
between the Roman Empire and India, but Cosmas was no doubt
the only writer who had actually made the journey. He traveled
the Red Sea coast, and as far as Taprobane (Ceylon, modern
Sri Lanka), and he describes some of what he saw, and even
drew pictures of strange animals in his autograph manuscript.
Away from his whacky theory, Cosmas is both interesting and
reliable. It was this content that made the work was immensely
popular in the Dark Ages (much as Mandeville's Travels were
in the Middle Ages), but it carried his cosmology along with it.
    You can read the complete text of "Christian Topography" at:
http://www.ccel.org/p/pearse/morefathers/cosmas_01_book1.htm
if you want laugh and groan.
    Isidore of Seville (600-635 AD), very erudite, discusses a variety
of theories without really deciding which is right, but most writers
of the seventh century stuck with a Flat-Earth model the Babylonians
had proven erroneous 3000 years before!
    Starting with the ninth century, Greek writing, preserved in Ireland,
begins to seep slowly back into the Christian West. Bacon and
Aquinas may have known about the Ptolemaic theory but they did
not write about it. But it is not until 1256 AD that the first short
and sketchy account of the Ptolemaic system appears in a
European language, just a few pages. And the full exposition of
a geocentric spherical Earth would wait until early- to mid-fifteenth
century for full publication.
    The importance of celestial navigation in Europe's expansion toward
gobbling up the planet (Hey! Somebody had to do it!) was the chief
impetus for pushing for greater accuracy and understanding that would
lead us to Copernicus, Tycho Brahe, Kepler, Galileo, and all the rest
of that story...


Sterling K. Webb
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
----- Original Message -----
From: "Martin Altmann" <altmann_at_meteorite-martin.de>
To: <Meteorite-list_at_meteoritecentral.com>; "'Rob McCafferty'"
<rob_mccafferty_at_yahoo.com>
Sent: Thursday, May 04, 2006 7:26 PM
Subject: AW: [meteorite-list] RE: Doing the rounds


In fact without the church, we really would live in a dark age nowadays.
Smth which is always forgotten, as the discipline of History of Science is
mainly philology, a branch which since decades isn't directly en vogue.
For a period of about 800 years the church was the only institution
collecting knowledge, doing science and educating students.
And nowadays we wouldn't for sure live in such a technically and
scientifically developed (socially I'm not so sure) world,
if there wasn't done the enormous transfer of knowledge by the clerics in
mediaeval times of the classical sciences, which the Islamic scientist
rescued and enlarged. Already before 1000 A.D. the first Arabian texts (btw.
Astronomical treaties) were translated to Latin by monks, take as an example
the manual for using the planispheric astrolabe by Gerbert d'Aurillac (950 -
1003), the later pope Sylvester II. and in the main stream later in 13.th
century it was of course also the church, who cared for translating and
spread the scientific literature from islamic occupied Spain, mainly with
the help of Mozarabs and bilingual jewish savants.
Copernicus, Brahe, Kepler weren't isolated ingenious solitaires,
they founded on a tradition and a 600 years lasting history of ideas,
collected and taught by the scholars of the church.
Without church no antique knowledge, no renaissance, no reconnaissance, no
modern science.
It is astonishing to me, how few is taught today about those for the
development of the occident most important period in history on
universities. For astronomers & physicists science starts with Newton, as
science would fall suddenly like an apple from a tree and the philologists,
who could read the texts, rather like to occupy with novels about knights
and stuff,
and the normal consumers see on cinema Giordano burning, a pissed-off
Gallilei sitting in his villa, or think, that Columbus' achievement beside
of the enormous size of his nose was, that he didn't fell off from the disk
or are lost in the mists of Avalon.
Imagine, recently I read in two independent articles in the largest German
astronomy (one was from a Prof. of physics) magazine, that in mediaeval
times people would have thought and church taught, that the Earth would be a
flat disk, cause a round world would have been inconsistent with the bible.
What an incredible rubbish!!
(that prejudice about the disk firstly appeared in 17th century).

Buckleboo
Martin







-----Urspr?ngliche Nachricht-----
Von: meteorite-list-bounces_at_meteoritecentral.com
[mailto:meteorite-list-bounces_at_meteoritecentral.com] Im Auftrag von Rob
McCafferty
Gesendet: Freitag, 5. Mai 2006 00:23
An: britishandirishmeteoritesociety_at_yahoogroups.com;
meteorite-list_at_meteoritecentral.com
Betreff: [meteorite-list] RE: Doing the rounds

Don't worry about getting excommunicated. They can't
do that unless you're already a member. Though maybe
you are.

Incidentally, the Vatican's position has softened
tremendously in the last few years.

BBC Radio Scotland had the Vatican's Meteorite
representative on at about 830am this morning. I
didn't even know they had one of the worlds largest
meteorite collections let alone a representative to
talk about it.

I missed a lot of it because out on this island, the
reception isn't great and it's even worse since I tore
the ariel off the roof putting my car in a ditch a
couple of months back. What I did pick up was that
they agree with the scientists over the age of the
Earth and theologically speaking, they have no problem
with any of the theories over the creation of the
universe or even the concept of life on other planets.

Galileo has had 10 years to recover from the burns of
hell now so I'm sure he feels pretty vindicated. House
arrest isn't so bad, not if you've got a telescope, a
microscope, some meteorites and the internet so he
must have enjoyed it about 25% by my maths.

As a scientist who is a Christian, a lot of people as
me about the church changing it's stance over Galileo.
I tend to be rather glib in my response.
The wittiest repost is along the lines of,

"He got out of Hell on appeal which is no surprise
because guess where all the lawyers are"

It's a larf innit?

Rob McC

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Received on Sat 06 May 2006 04:08:46 PM PDT