AW: AW: Re-2: [meteorite-list] Moss Meteorite From A Comet?

From: Martin Altmann <altmann_at_meteoritecentral.com>
Date: Mon Aug 21 11:49:56 2006
Message-ID: <002801c6c539$707a2a60$4f41fea9_at_name86d88d87e2>

Hi Ed,

the problem with the Chiemgau-debate is, that it is so old, that the
discussion seems to be driven predominantly by the human factor and not by
science anymore. Personal attacks of the different involved groups seem to
make a rational analysis of this issue impossible.
Some say they have clear evidence, but don't want to show the samples, other
seem to care more about the personal reputation of the adversary group
members than about research, others choose as place for publication rather
TV and media and not the usual journals... - a mess (partially paid by the
German tax-payer).

The so called craters were identified by the Geologischen Landesamt as
glacial - sorry I don't find the terminus technicus in English now, I think
"kettle" is the right word? - and some as antique bloomeries.
There is also a small, quite circulate lake and one scientist claims to have
thin sections from shocked quartz from there, but never published it.

The metal finds around there contain no nickel
(and as no meteoritic material could be found, the fans of the impact
scenario seems to have switched to a theory of a comet fragment exploded at
high altitudes, which dynamically seems not to work (there I'm not an
expert)).

And finally the ominous "presolar" FeSi-pellets contain no cosmogene noble
gases, nor do the O-isotopes show an extraterrestrial origin.
They are found also elsewhere, not only in Chiemgau and are most probably
industrial pollution.

That's what I heard so far,
but I'm sure that Dieter Heinlein, who was somewhat involved in that issue,
can give you better details.

A funny thing I have to tell more.
Obviously some of the impact-camps played with the online impact effect
calculator and from the results they made a dramatic pseudo-documentary.
There you could see the Celts of Chiemgau in 465 b.C. (some of the "experts"
achieved to calculate the exact date of the fall - here I see the motivation
in the before discussed crater in Northern Italy, which was connected with
the vision of emperor Constantine, the cross in the sky...).
And the sky was falling on their heads.
Fortunately the falling fire brought also some iron with it,
so that the Celts of Chiemgau profited in a sudden step forward in
civilization and technology.
The metal was attributed as "The Black Gold of the Celts"..
...?hem and so on.

That documentary was shown in one of the main TV-channels at Sunday
primetime.

Effect, several people believed each brown stone in their gardens to be a
meteorite and the Black Gold of the Celts.

One very enthusiastic finder you will still find trying to sell his
"meteorites" on German ebay.
(He learned, meanwhile he's selling also Mars-chondrites, CIs, and fossils
of animals killed by impacts (not Ries-Belemnites)).

http://kuerzer.de/gosh1

http://kuerzer.de/gosh2

Enjoy!
Martin


-----Urspr?ngliche Nachricht-----
Von: meteorite-list-bounces_at_meteoritecentral.com
[mailto:meteorite-list-bounces_at_meteoritecentral.com] Im Auftrag von E.P.
Grondine
Gesendet: Montag, 21. August 2006 16:22
An: meteorite-list_at_meteoritecentral.com
Betreff: Re: AW: Re-2: [meteorite-list] Moss Meteorite From A Comet?

Hi Martin,

That's news to me. I don't have the URL at hand to
give you for the initial study, but the isotopic
evidence the U Wurzburg team presented then was pretty
good.

I have not seen any refutations yet - I may have
missed them. Do you have a URL handy for them?

good hunting,
Ed

--- Martin Altmann <altmann_at_meteorite-martin.de>
wrote:

> Hi Ed,
>
> not to dissapoint you,
> but since decades the Chiemgau-impact is brought up
> again and again,
> though until now not a sinlge scientific relevant
> proof was found or
> delivered, neither for the presumed impact pits and
> craters,
> nor for the recovered samples, which turned out to
> be terrestrial.
>
> Best!
> Martin
>
> -----Urspr?ngliche Nachricht-----
> Von: meteorite-list-bounces_at_meteoritecentral.com
> [mailto:meteorite-list-bounces_at_meteoritecentral.com]
> Im Auftrag von E.P.
> Grondine
> Gesendet: Montag, 21. August 2006 15:53
> An: meteorite-list_at_meteoritecentral.com
> Betreff: Re: Re-2: [meteorite-list] Moss Meteorite
> From A Comet?
>
> Hi Larry, List -
>
> It appears we have at least one other comet sample:
> Cheimgau.
>
> good hunting,
> Ed
>
>
> --- Larry Lebofsky <lebofsky_at_lpl.arizona.edu> wrote:
>
> > Hi all:
> >
> > Defending Tim Swindle and Humberto Campins. I have
> > known them for years and
> > they are very conservative scientists. Their work
> is
> > good and they are well-
> > respected scientists. They do not go off (too
> often)
> > to make wild,
> > unsubstantiated, claims., hence, the conclusions
> in
> > their article. They based
> > their Meteorite paper (and their original
> scientific
> > paper) on what we know.
> > We have observations of many comets (Campins has
> > done a lot of this), but we
> > have "samples" from only one comet (Halley), are
> > just now studying Stardust
> > material (so too early to say much), and IDPs
> which
> > are thought to be, at
> > least in part, cometary in origin.
> >
> > Clearly, we need multiple samples from multiple
> > comets --- good luck in our
> > lifetime. Therefore you base your "theories" on
> the
> > existing information, not
> > onwhat you hope to have in the future. That is why
> > people propose new missions
> > to comets and asteroids!
> >
> > We know that not all comets are the same based on
> > our observations and where
> > we think they came from. Some of this may be
> because
> > of how many times they
> > have been close to the Sun, some may have to be
> > related to where they came
> > from (Kuiper Belt or Oort cloud), and some may
> have
> > to do with where they were
> > formed (which may not have been where we see them
> > coming from). Clearly, a
> > chunk of a "fresh" comet would look very different
> > from a "dead" comet. Or, as
> > been on this listserv recently, could we tell the
> > difference between a chunk
> > of a comet or a piece of Ceres? I am not sure I
> > would be willing to say
> > anything in print even though I have studied Ceres
> > for years. What, from
> > either, would we expect to make it through the
> > atmosphere?
> >
> > Even if we were to bring back samples from two or
> > three comets, I doubt if
> > anyone I know would be willing to say (with
> respect
> > to the composition of
> > comets) that that was their "final answer." That
> is
> > the nature of science.
> >
> > I really have to stop writing these a 5:00 in the
> > morning, no breakfast and no
> > soffee, but this is the quiet time of the day.
> >
> > Larry
> >
> >
> >
> > Quoting bernd.pauli_at_paulinet.de:
> >
> > > "Comets ... being 'primitive material' ... we
> > would need
> > > to have known multiple samples of multiple
> comets
> > before
> > > we could say for sure."
> > >
> > > Hi Mark and List,
> > >
> > > I couldn't agree more and that's why I felt a
> bit
> > uneasy when I read
> > > Campins' and Swindle's article in this issue of
> > our METEORITE magazine:
> > >
> > > CAMPINS H. and SWINDLE T.D.(2006) Where are the
> > cometary
> > > meteorites? (Meteorite, May 2006, Vol. 12, No.2,
> > pp. 17-19).
> > >
> > > They solely refer repeatedly to Comet Halley and
> > to Halley dust (plus to
> > > cometary IDPs). Many more comets need to be
> > sampled before we can draw
> > > definite conclusions!
> > >
> > > Best,
> > >
> > > Bernd
> > >
> > > ______________________________________________
> > > Meteorite-list mailing list
> > > Meteorite-list_at_meteoritecentral.com
> > >
> >
>
http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
> > >
> >
> >
> > ______________________________________________
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> >
>
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> >
>
>
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Received on Mon 21 Aug 2006 11:49:49 AM PDT