[meteorite-list] magnetism (Was Pasamonte...)

From: MexicoDoug_at_aol.com <MexicoDoug_at_meteoritecentral.com>
Date: Tue Sep 7 11:40:37 2004
Message-ID: <6EEEC1B8.511B3542.0BFED528_at_aol.com>

Dave "Magnetic Personality" Freeman asked:

>...car engine blocks...made of iron but not magnetic...
>hematite, magnetite (except lodestone) not magnetic...
>...Incorrect use of word magnetic...
>Could you clarify the use of "man is it magnetic"?

"Magmatic Personality" Doug responds:

Well, aren't you being a stickler! It's Ok to call
 disoriented kitchen sink variety iron magnetic! I thought
 engine blocks were made mostly from aluminum nowadays, so I
 agree those wouldn't be very magnetic, unless you put it in
 the context of passing a directional electrical current
 through them and voila, electromagnet!

If I must explain myself, I guess I would have to clarify
 the "man it is magnetic!" to be:

"Fellow males and females of the Homo sapiens sapiens
 subspecies, when the piece of suspected hematite is
 introduced into a magnetic field created by a strong
 permanent ferromagnetic material at ambient conditions, the
 specific sample of suspected antiferrimagnetic hematite
 exhibits a statistically significant paramagnetism not
 observed even weakly in the other samples collected in the
 same locality under apparently similar conditions raising
 suspicion that the assumption of similar sample histories
 could be wrong, or could be a "random" statistical
 fluctuation. The adjective magnetic, thus, is perfectly
 correct to use to describe the phenomenon produced when the
 listener has been warned in context that the magnetic
 properties are induced by the magnetic field of the rare
 earth magnet, as was patently clarified."

Now when you say a magnet is magnetic, I'll not be a pain in
 the ass, and agree with you as I muse what this means in the
 total absence of infrared radiation or other heat generating
 sources. The maglev train engineers could probably clarify
 that better. The point being I understand from context you
 mean at ambient conditions when nothing funny is going on.

Your steel engine block may not be magnetic now, but if you
 touch your meteorite cane's magnet to it, it shall be, though
 it won't become a permanent magnet unless you magnetize it,
 which isn't very hard to do. But it is always magnetic in
 ambient conditions when in a magnetic field. Such are
 paramagnetic materiales...

And the fact that many geologists choose to distinguish "being
 attracted to a magnet" vs. "attracting magnetic elements" is
 a convenience, but certainly not a reason to call the use of
 the word "MAGNETIC" incorrect. Your beef seems more that I
 didn't specify whether it was a permanent magnet or not.
 That's a different question, and rather than being correct or
 incorrect, it is simply an unknown in my case.

Wait...I checked it. It is a very weak permanent magnet and
 thus correctly "magnetic" even by your English useage
 convention. The test I just did was: a non-magnetized cold
 rolled steel chisel as the control and the sample as the
 unknown. Chisel failed to orient iron filings from my latest
 plumbing project mess, but the sample oriented them, proving
 it produces a very weak magnetic field. Whether this was
 present before I briefly tested it with the meteorite cane in
 the field, I don't know, as I suppose it is worth
 investigating whether that the rare earth magnet could have
 magnetized it.

And finally, when a permanent magnet produces a magnetic
 field, it's usually not worth getting philosophical on
 whether the permanent magnet is attracting the sample, or
 whether the sample is attracting the permanent magnet. I'll
 stick with "magnetic" unless my communication becomes
 ambiguous (let alone incorrect!) for a specific item or some
 rabid geologist threatens to beat me up.
Is that clear now:)
Saludos MagmaticDoug

Subj: Re: [meteorite-list] Pasamonte magnetism
  Date: 9/7/2004 1:35:20 AM Eastern Daylight Time
  From: David Freeman <dfreeman_at_fascination.com>
  To: MexicoDoug_at_aol.com

Dear MexicoDoug, and all;
I see the phrase "...man is it magnetic" used below. I find that most folks use "magnetic" in meaning the rock is attracted to a magnet...and that is a non correct use of the word. A magnet is magnetic, as is natural lode stone. Car engine blocks although made of iron, are not magnetic. Hematite, magnetite (except for lode stone), and banded iron
formation (iron ore) are not magnetic.
Could you clarify the use of "man is it magnetic"?

Magnetic personality,
Dave F.

MexicoDoug_at_aol.com wrote:

>Hola Martin,
>
>Your question about Pasamonte is a very interesting one for me, because last night I was pondering the same thing for some terrestrial rocks found while meteorite hunting Sunday. I got a total of about 40 "hematite nodules" shaped from nice kidney-rose balls to a crinoidal replacement, and even a few poor examples of hexagonal crystalline specimens.
>
>All but one were non-magnetic to a powerful rare earth magnet which can lift 8 poinds of iron when its 2 square cm surface are is in contact.
>
>The odd thing is that the unique one that scared the daylights out of me in the field me by audibly snapping to the magnet, a rather non-descript small slightly blacker weathered fragment, polishes red and leaves red streak, but man is it magnetic.
>
>Now besides really being interested in your Pasamonte observation for that special meteorite itself, the link your question has to my own curious situation is ... "Is the certain piece really special, not random" or is it just a perhaps part of the typical Gaussian tail, i.e. statistically a little bit of magnetic iron material getting distributed realitively widely during formation. My case is for hematite "nodule" growths at the bottom of an ancient sea (now desert). That opens some interesting musing about Vesta "geo"logy itself and what processes might have been at work locally on Pasamonte's Vesta parent locality to create the diverse conditions you are suggesting...
>
>Pretty post, I pray prominent Pasamonte piece proprieters produce prime & pertinent points.
>Saludos, Doug
>
>
>Michael Blood escribe:
>Hi Martin & list,
>I used one of the rare earth magnets (about 1 oz - identical to
>the one taped very near the end of my meteorite cane). These magnets are so powerful you will get a blood blister if any flesh is between the surfaces when you put one within 4 to 6 inches of iron. VERY difficult to remove from an even metal surface. THE most intense magnet I have come across.
>
>The Pasamonte individual is the 12.6g oriented whole stone of
>Ninninger fame. I carefully held it as I slowly approached it with the magnet with NO discernable effect clear up to contact.
>However, when I very precariously ballanced the stone on its
>side in my hand and slowly approached it with the magnet, it did lean toward it when it got within about 1/4 to 1/2 inch.
> That's my report from San Diego.
> Best wishes, Michael
>
>on 9/6/04 1:47 PM, martinh_at_isu.edu at martinh@isu.edu wrote:
>
>>Hi All,
>>
>>I have two very nice partial individuals of Pasamonte, both with crust and
>>Nininger numbers. However one is highly attracted to a magnet, while the other
>>is not.
>>
>>Before jumping to all kinds of speculation, I would like to ask a favor of
>>this List that really uses the power of a discussion group like this forum.
>>Could those of you with pieces of Pasamonte (the 1933 eucrite fall) hold a
>>strong magnet to your you piece(s) and report back as how your Pasamonte piece
>>responded to the magnet. It might also help if you noted the rough size of the
>>piece and the relative strength of the magnet.
>>
>>Thanks, and let the amateur science begin!
>>
>>Martin
Received on Tue 07 Sep 2004 11:40:20 AM PDT