[meteorite-list] Trust - Was...Honest Answer...

From: John Birdsell <birdsell_at_meteoritecentral.com>
Date: Sun Nov 21 20:40:44 2004
Message-ID: <41A1439C.90506_at_email.arizona.edu>

Adam...I don't think there is any argument. We simple pointed out that
you mis-spoke when you told Rob that every one of your shergottite
pieces had been micro-probed. I the interests of the collectors I think
that honesty is the best policy, and I'm sure that you agree.

Cheers

-John & Dawn
Arizona Skies Meteorites


Adam Hupe wrote:

>Why is there an argument in regards to material that has been NomCom
>approved? The problem is pseudo-dealers thinking they know more than
>scientists. If we start questioning scientist, who have been very patient
>thus far with the collecting community, where will this leave us?
>
>Think about it,
>
>Adam
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "John Birdsell" <birdsell_at_email.arizona.edu>
>To: <meteorite-list_at_meteoritecentral.com>
>Cc: "Adam Hupe" <raremeteorites_at_comcast.net>; <nakhladog@comcast.net>
>Sent: Sunday, November 21, 2004 5:24 PM
>Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Trust - Was...Honest Answer...
>
>
>
>
>>Adam....I think you meant your pieces were "looked at" by Dr. Irving as
>>this is what you have told the list repeatedly. You could not possibly
>>have had every piece microprobed as all the pieces we have seen sold by
>>you on ebay did not even have a window polished into them. Further, no
>>one in their right mind would microprobe each and every little piece of
>>shergottite that you bought in Morocco. I think we can all move on from
>>this NWA 1110 thread as it is getting rather old.
>>
>>We have NWA 2373 which has been provisionally classified as being paired
>>with NWA 1068, so if anyone is still interested in purchasing a
>>classified shergottite that has been properly tested and for which a
>>type specimen has been submitted, please feel free.
>>
>>
>>Thanks all!
>>
>>
>>-John & Dawn
>>Arizona Skies Meteorites
>>
>>
>>
>>Adam Hupe wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>>Microprobed, read the abstract:
>>>
>>>http://www2.jpl.nasa.gov/snc/nwa1110.html
>>>
>>>How else can you get ratios to support a Martian origin?
>>>
>>>Adam
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>----- Original Message -----
>>>From: "Rob Wesel" <nakhladog_at_comcast.net>
>>>To: "Adam Hupe" <raremeteorites_at_comcast.net>
>>>Cc: <meteorite-list_at_meteoritecentral.com>
>>>Sent: Sunday, November 21, 2004 5:00 PM
>>>Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Trust - Was...Honest Answer...
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>Looked at or microprobed?
>>>>
>>>>Bernhard asked, I answered, please see Dr. Grossman's evaluation of
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>"looked
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>at"
>>>>
>>>>Rob Wesel
>>>>------------------
>>>>We are the music makers...
>>>>and we are the dreamers of the dreams.
>>>>Willy Wonka, 1971
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>----- Original Message -----
>>>>From: "Adam Hupe" <raremeteorites_at_comcast.net>
>>>>To: "Rob Wesel" <nakhladog_at_comcast.net>
>>>>Cc: <meteorite-list_at_meteoritecentral.com>
>>>>Sent: Sunday, November 21, 2004 4:47 PM
>>>>Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Trust - Was...Honest Answer...
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>Rob,
>>>>>
>>>>>What are you talking about. A type specimen for NWA 1110 was submitted
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>to
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>>and studied by the University of Washington. Thin sections were cut,
>>>>>pieces
>>>>>were analyzed with a microprobe, specimens were sent out for Isotope
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>work
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>>and dating. NWA 1110 is a well studied set of stones. Every fragment
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>was
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>>cleaned and then looked at by Dr. Irving. Dr. Irving rejected several
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>of
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>>the pebbles that were submitted as being terrestrial otherwise nobody
>>>>>would
>>>>>have known the difference. The NomCom then voted on this group of
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>gravel
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>>and made it official. Dr Irving not only works in a laboratory he is
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>one
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>>of
>>>>>the few scientist who has actually gone on a Team LunarRock expedition
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>to
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>>Morocco. He knows what is going on in and is work is of the highest
>>>>>standard.
>>>>>
>>>>>Think about what you are saying,
>>>>>
>>>>>Adam
>>>>>
>>>>>----- Original Message -----
>>>>>From: "Rob Wesel" <nakhladog_at_comcast.net>
>>>>>To: "Bernhard Rems" <rendelius_at_rpgdot.com>
>>>>>Cc: <Meteorite-list_at_meteoritecentral.com>
>>>>>Sent: Sunday, November 21, 2004 3:58 PM
>>>>>Subject: [meteorite-list] Trust - Was...Honest Answer...
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>Well, easy enough, I don't have any NWA 1110, never did so that
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>answers
>
>
>>>>>>that.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>You hit on trust. Trust is the way every meteorite in history has been
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>sold
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>until the dawn of NWA naming rules. Once again, every L'Aigle, every
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>Gao,
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>>>every Holbrook and Canyon Diablo.
>>>>>>Burkina Faso has a new fall Lampiayrie, so add that to Gao, Guenie,
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>Bilanga
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>and to have a "high collection area" where pairings rules are not
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>conducted
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>or required. Trust is the very thing I am talking about. I strongly
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>suspect
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>that no non-NWA meteorite in your collection has been tested, if so
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>the
>
>
>>>>>>ratio is way down. Do things fall through the cracks, yes. Calcalong
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>Creek
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>is the paramount example, had Bob Haag had a bad day and just weighed
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>and
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>>>bagged it as Millbillillie then it likely would have been lost. But,
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>by
>
>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>and
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>large, the system ain't broke so why fix it. Buy from people you
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>trust,
>
>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>like
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>centuries of collectors in the past. I have sold to you more than
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>once,
>
>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>I
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>>>hope you trust me. I have nothing to hide. I merely offer that this
>>>>>>recent
>>>>>>chest beating is marketing disguised as science, and the scientist
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>just
>
>
>>>>>>confirmed it in saying that visual pairings are worthless and of
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>little
>
>
>>>>>>scientific importance. NWA 1110 was visually paired, A+B=C, so trust
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>who
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>>you
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>will, you still just bought a piece of paper if you bought NWA 1110.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>I am following the NomCom rules, I am doing what is asked. That does
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>not
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>>>mean I endorse it. I am 100% in favor of the scientific advancement in
>>>>>>various fields that type specimens provide...but this is not science,
>>>>>>it's
>>>>>>marketing.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Trust
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Point in fact, the only questionable material in my inventory came
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>from
>
>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>the
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>Hupes in the names NWA 1929, NWA 1906, NWA 801, NWA 978, and possibly
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>NWA
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>>>1836, a claim which I can support with documents sitting right here on
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>my
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>>>desk and must now sort out at their own litigious request. So trust
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>who
>
>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>you
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>will.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Furthermore, with the publishing of the "who's naughty and who's nice
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>lists"
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>is a customer what bought a large amount of classified NWA 3118 from
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>my
>
>
>>>>>>by
>>>>>>way of the Hupes and is intended for resale. Adam posts to the list
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>the
>
>
>>>>>>people you can "trust" and because I don't report every sale I make to
>>>>>>him
>>>>>>this buyer is not mentioned as "trustworthy". He is new to the
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>business
>
>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>and
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>is flooded with people he has now sold to asking if his 3118 is legit.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>He
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>>>panics a bit, checks with me and I confirm it is HUPE OFFICIAL
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>material.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>>He
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>then sends a letter to Adam asking to be included in this stupid game
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>of
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>>>Hupe sanctioned sellers and receives no reply. So he's still being
>>>>>>questioned. Oh yeah, this is great for the hobby, a new seller's
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>business
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>>is
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>hurt and everyone is doubting his material that was all delivered from
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>high
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>upon Mt. Hupe in the first place.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>So Bernhard, I know you to be a man of intellect, please do not buy
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>into
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>>>this grandstanding.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Mike Farmer pointed out the simple truth (and this is not a direct
>>>>>>quote)...we all did this, now we do it as requested by the NomCom
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>(flawed
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>>as
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>it admittedly is as outlined by Dr. Grossman) or we spiral further
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>into
>
>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>this
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>Gestapo climate we are already in.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Trust who you will
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Rob Wesel
>>>>>>------------------
>>>>>>We are the music makers...
>>>>>>and we are the dreamers of the dreams.
>>>>>>Willy Wonka, 1971
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>From: "Bernhard Rems" <rendelius_at_rpgdot.com>
>>>>>>To: "'Rob Wesel'" <nakhladog_at_comcast.net>
>>>>>>Cc: <Meteorite-list_at_meteoritecentral.com>
>>>>>>Sent: Sunday, November 21, 2004 2:43 PM
>>>>>>Subject: AW: [meteorite-list] Thanks for the honest answer Dr.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>Grossman
>
>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Rob,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>what I will write isn't from a scientific point of view. I am no
>>>>>>>scientist. I am a collector. So what I will write is from a
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>collector's
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>>>>point of view.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>With no meteorite I have ever bought on ebay or elsewhere, I got
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>proof
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>>>>that what was sold to me was actually what it was advertised to be.
>>>>>>>It's
>>>>>>>hard to proof it, even the so called certificates of authenticy are
>>>>>>>nothing more than paper, since there is only one person in the world
>>>>>>>who
>>>>>>>can guarantee that the meteorite is what he is said to be: the
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>original
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>>>>holder of the classified material.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>So, when there is no proof - the only thing that remains is trust. I
>>>>>>>have to trust the seller that he sells me what he tells me. If this
>>>>>>>trust is shaken by something, I will stay away from him in the
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>future.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>>>>There are two easy questions I want to ask you:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>1) How can you PROOF you sell NWA 1110 when you sell NWA 1110? Just
>>>>>>>tell
>>>>>>>me what proofs for YOU that you are selling NWA 1110.
>>>>>>>2) How can you be sure that the material you are selling is martian?
>>>>>>>Just tell me what proofs for YOU that you are selling a martian
>>>>>>>meteorite with NWA 1110.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Answer them in a way that makes me trust in you. I assume that when
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>you
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>>>>bought that material, you asked the seller the same questions, right?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Bernhard
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>______________________________________________
>>>>>>Meteorite-list mailing list
>>>>>>Meteorite-list_at_meteoritecentral.com
>>>>>>http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>______________________________________________
>>>Meteorite-list mailing list
>>>Meteorite-list_at_meteoritecentral.com
>>>http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>
>
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>
>
>
Received on Sun 21 Nov 2004 08:40:45 PM PST