[meteorite-list] Trust - Was...Honest Answer...

From: Rob Wesel <nakhladog_at_meteoritecentral.com>
Date: Sun Nov 21 20:14:55 2004
Message-ID: <002f01c4d030$61232f80$46d5a943_at_robewcufk0z2s3>

Well then I owe you an apology, if EVERY piece was microprobed then this
falls above and beyond the NomCom rules and at immense expense to you.
Thank you for clearing that matter up, I must have misunderstood the part
where you stated " Every fragment was cleaned and then looked at by Dr.
Irving." as being literally looked at and not probed. I am familiar with the
abstract but it doesn't specify that every piece was microprobed.
Again I am very sorry.

Rob Wesel
------------------
We are the music makers...
and we are the dreamers of the dreams.
Willy Wonka, 1971



----- Original Message -----
From: "Adam Hupe" <raremeteorites_at_comcast.net>
To: "Rob Wesel" <nakhladog_at_comcast.net>
Cc: <meteorite-list_at_meteoritecentral.com>
Sent: Sunday, November 21, 2004 4:55 PM
Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Trust - Was...Honest Answer...


> Microprobed, read the abstract:
>
> http://www2.jpl.nasa.gov/snc/nwa1110.html
>
> How else can you get ratios to support a Martian origin?
>
> Adam
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Rob Wesel" <nakhladog_at_comcast.net>
> To: "Adam Hupe" <raremeteorites_at_comcast.net>
> Cc: <meteorite-list_at_meteoritecentral.com>
> Sent: Sunday, November 21, 2004 5:00 PM
> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Trust - Was...Honest Answer...
>
>
>> Looked at or microprobed?
>>
>> Bernhard asked, I answered, please see Dr. Grossman's evaluation of
> "looked
>> at"
>>
>> Rob Wesel
>> ------------------
>> We are the music makers...
>> and we are the dreamers of the dreams.
>> Willy Wonka, 1971
>>
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Adam Hupe" <raremeteorites_at_comcast.net>
>> To: "Rob Wesel" <nakhladog_at_comcast.net>
>> Cc: <meteorite-list_at_meteoritecentral.com>
>> Sent: Sunday, November 21, 2004 4:47 PM
>> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Trust - Was...Honest Answer...
>>
>>
>> > Rob,
>> >
>> > What are you talking about. A type specimen for NWA 1110 was submitted
> to
>> > and studied by the University of Washington. Thin sections were cut,
>> > pieces
>> > were analyzed with a microprobe, specimens were sent out for Isotope
> work
>> > and dating. NWA 1110 is a well studied set of stones. Every fragment
> was
>> > cleaned and then looked at by Dr. Irving. Dr. Irving rejected several
> of
>> > the pebbles that were submitted as being terrestrial otherwise nobody
>> > would
>> > have known the difference. The NomCom then voted on this group of
> gravel
>> > and made it official. Dr Irving not only works in a laboratory he is
> one
>> > of
>> > the few scientist who has actually gone on a Team LunarRock expedition
> to
>> > Morocco. He knows what is going on in and is work is of the highest
>> > standard.
>> >
>> > Think about what you are saying,
>> >
>> > Adam
>> >
>> > ----- Original Message -----
>> > From: "Rob Wesel" <nakhladog_at_comcast.net>
>> > To: "Bernhard Rems" <rendelius_at_rpgdot.com>
>> > Cc: <Meteorite-list_at_meteoritecentral.com>
>> > Sent: Sunday, November 21, 2004 3:58 PM
>> > Subject: [meteorite-list] Trust - Was...Honest Answer...
>> >
>> >
>> >> Well, easy enough, I don't have any NWA 1110, never did so that
>> >> answers
>> >> that.
>> >>
>> >> You hit on trust. Trust is the way every meteorite in history has been
>> > sold
>> >> until the dawn of NWA naming rules. Once again, every L'Aigle, every
> Gao,
>> >> every Holbrook and Canyon Diablo.
>> >> Burkina Faso has a new fall Lampiayrie, so add that to Gao, Guenie,
>> > Bilanga
>> >> and to have a "high collection area" where pairings rules are not
>> > conducted
>> >> or required. Trust is the very thing I am talking about. I strongly
>> > suspect
>> >> that no non-NWA meteorite in your collection has been tested, if so
>> >> the
>> >> ratio is way down. Do things fall through the cracks, yes. Calcalong
>> > Creek
>> >> is the paramount example, had Bob Haag had a bad day and just weighed
> and
>> >> bagged it as Millbillillie then it likely would have been lost. But,
>> >> by
>> > and
>> >> large, the system ain't broke so why fix it. Buy from people you
>> >> trust,
>> > like
>> >> centuries of collectors in the past. I have sold to you more than
>> >> once,
> I
>> >> hope you trust me. I have nothing to hide. I merely offer that this
>> >> recent
>> >> chest beating is marketing disguised as science, and the scientist
>> >> just
>> >> confirmed it in saying that visual pairings are worthless and of
>> >> little
>> >> scientific importance. NWA 1110 was visually paired, A+B=C, so trust
> who
>> > you
>> >> will, you still just bought a piece of paper if you bought NWA 1110.
>> >>
>> >> I am following the NomCom rules, I am doing what is asked. That does
> not
>> >> mean I endorse it. I am 100% in favor of the scientific advancement in
>> >> various fields that type specimens provide...but this is not science,
>> >> it's
>> >> marketing.
>> >>
>> >> Trust
>> >>
>> >> Point in fact, the only questionable material in my inventory came
>> >> from
>> > the
>> >> Hupes in the names NWA 1929, NWA 1906, NWA 801, NWA 978, and possibly
> NWA
>> >> 1836, a claim which I can support with documents sitting right here on
> my
>> >> desk and must now sort out at their own litigious request. So trust
>> >> who
>> > you
>> >> will.
>> >>
>> >> Furthermore, with the publishing of the "who's naughty and who's nice
>> > lists"
>> >> is a customer what bought a large amount of classified NWA 3118 from
>> >> my
>> >> by
>> >> way of the Hupes and is intended for resale. Adam posts to the list
>> >> the
>> >> people you can "trust" and because I don't report every sale I make to
>> >> him
>> >> this buyer is not mentioned as "trustworthy". He is new to the
>> >> business
>> > and
>> >> is flooded with people he has now sold to asking if his 3118 is legit.
> He
>> >> panics a bit, checks with me and I confirm it is HUPE OFFICIAL
> material.
>> > He
>> >> then sends a letter to Adam asking to be included in this stupid game
> of
>> >> Hupe sanctioned sellers and receives no reply. So he's still being
>> >> questioned. Oh yeah, this is great for the hobby, a new seller's
> business
>> > is
>> >> hurt and everyone is doubting his material that was all delivered from
>> > high
>> >> upon Mt. Hupe in the first place.
>> >>
>> >> So Bernhard, I know you to be a man of intellect, please do not buy
> into
>> >> this grandstanding.
>> >>
>> >> Mike Farmer pointed out the simple truth (and this is not a direct
>> >> quote)...we all did this, now we do it as requested by the NomCom
> (flawed
>> > as
>> >> it admittedly is as outlined by Dr. Grossman) or we spiral further
>> >> into
>> > this
>> >> Gestapo climate we are already in.
>> >>
>> >> Trust who you will
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Rob Wesel
>> >> ------------------
>> >> We are the music makers...
>> >> and we are the dreamers of the dreams.
>> >> Willy Wonka, 1971
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> ----- Original Message -----
>> >> From: "Bernhard Rems" <rendelius_at_rpgdot.com>
>> >> To: "'Rob Wesel'" <nakhladog_at_comcast.net>
>> >> Cc: <Meteorite-list_at_meteoritecentral.com>
>> >> Sent: Sunday, November 21, 2004 2:43 PM
>> >> Subject: AW: [meteorite-list] Thanks for the honest answer Dr.
>> >> Grossman
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> > Rob,
>> >> >
>> >> > what I will write isn't from a scientific point of view. I am no
>> >> > scientist. I am a collector. So what I will write is from a
> collector's
>> >> > point of view.
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > With no meteorite I have ever bought on ebay or elsewhere, I got
> proof
>> >> > that what was sold to me was actually what it was advertised to be.
>> >> > It's
>> >> > hard to proof it, even the so called certificates of authenticy are
>> >> > nothing more than paper, since there is only one person in the world
>> >> > who
>> >> > can guarantee that the meteorite is what he is said to be: the
> original
>> >> > holder of the classified material.
>> >> >
>> >> > So, when there is no proof - the only thing that remains is trust. I
>> >> > have to trust the seller that he sells me what he tells me. If this
>> >> > trust is shaken by something, I will stay away from him in the
> future.
>> >> >
>> >> > There are two easy questions I want to ask you:
>> >> >
>> >> > 1) How can you PROOF you sell NWA 1110 when you sell NWA 1110? Just
>> >> > tell
>> >> > me what proofs for YOU that you are selling NWA 1110.
>> >> > 2) How can you be sure that the material you are selling is martian?
>> >> > Just tell me what proofs for YOU that you are selling a martian
>> >> > meteorite with NWA 1110.
>> >> >
>> >> > Answer them in a way that makes me trust in you. I assume that when
> you
>> >> > bought that material, you asked the seller the same questions,
>> >> > right?
>> >> >
>> >> > Bernhard
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> ______________________________________________
>> >> Meteorite-list mailing list
>> >> Meteorite-list_at_meteoritecentral.com
>> >> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
>> >
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
Received on Sun 21 Nov 2004 08:12:47 PM PST