[meteorite-list] Meteorite numbers

From: MarkF <mafer_at_meteoritecentral.com>
Date: Sun Nov 21 13:56:54 2004
Message-ID: <008001c4cffb$db1dca00$fc08e104_at_MAF>

good quality and color of thin sections would be good as well. Heres a link
to one such example of plane and polarized light thinsection.

http://gmr.minsocam.org/Examples/XPolars.html

Mark
----- Original Message -----
From: "John Birdsell" <birdsell_at_email.arizona.edu>
To: "Jeff Grossman" <jgrossman_at_usgs.gov>
Cc: <meteorite-list_at_meteoritecentral.com>
Sent: Sunday, November 21, 2004 1:34 PM
Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorite numbers


> Hello Jeff and thanks for your email. I think a repository of high quality
> photos of type specimens would be extremely useful for the entire
> meteorite community.
>
>
> Cheers
>
>
> -John
>
>
>
> Jeff Grossman wrote:
>
>> There are several reasons for this result. Among these are:
>>
>> 1) Not all scientists are equally skilled at classifying meteorites.
>> 2) Not all samples are representative of the whole. It used to be that a
>> lab would have the entire mass to examine and could see the entire
>> structure. With meteorites in commercial hands, they often just get a
>> small chip. Given that lots of chondrites and achondrites are breccias,
>> this can be a problem.
>> 3) Some meteorites are borderline between types. Many of us try to make
>> a decision as to which it is, and two people might come down on opposite
>> sides of the line. If it actually matters, somebody will do careful work
>> and publish on the subject. In most cases the error doesn't matter.
>> Researchers all know that classification errors of this sort happen.
>> 4) Nobody has ever standardized the way that brecciated meteorites should
>> be described. Someday this will be fixed.
>> 5) Some areas of meteorite classification are controversial (e.g., the
>> use of type 7).
>>
>> We already have a consortium of labs... it is all of those labs that
>> agree to house type specimens and make them available for research
>> whenever an important scientific question arises. We already have a
>> network for data sharing... it includes the Meteoritical Bulletin and the
>> numerous scientific journals that publish abstracts and peer-reviewed
>> research. If there is a need for a repository of photos, for example, one
>> could be set up in short order. Is there?
>>
>> On the question of pairing... for most meteorites, pairing studies are of
>> little scientific interest and not worth taking the time to do. Visual
>> pairings are almost worthless. For the important meteorites, pairings get
>> worked out in the scientific literature over time. This may be
>> unsettling for some dealers, but that's the way it is.
>>
>> jeff
>>
>> At 11:11 AM 11/21/2004, Matt Morgan wrote:
>>
>>> Just to add a note...
>>> There is a fundamental scientific problem of classifying meteorites.
>>>
>>> Try sending two pieces of the same meteorite to different labs. Chances
>>> are you will get different results.
>>> For instance, I have "L5's" that came back as "L4's" and "L6's".
>>> "Regolith" this and "Primitive" that.
>>> I heard the same situation happening for NWA 1929, either howardite OR
>>> eucrite. I understand some of it is "interpretive".
>>>
>>> The system itself is flawed.
>>>
>>> Ideally, we need an NWA consortium of labs to correct this and have type
>>> specimens on hand.
>>>
>>> This SEEMS to be an easy fix, but university politics plays a huge role.
>>>
>>> So all you scientists who study NWA's, how about a network for meteorite
>>> "data sharing"? It will make ALL our lives easier...
>>>
>>> Matt Morgan
>>> Mile High Meteorites
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: meteorite-list-bounces_at_meteoritecentral.com
>>> [mailto:meteorite-list-bounces_at_meteoritecentral.com] On Behalf Of Rob
>>> Wesel
>>> Sent: Sunday, November 21, 2004 2:38 AM
>>> To: Michael Farmer; meteorite-list_at_meteoritecentral.com
>>> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorite numbers
>>>
>>>
>>> While I truly believe this practice is ultimately costly to the
>>> collector,
>>> truer words have never been spoken. Thanks Mike:
>>>
>>> "Virtually every dealer including myself has been or is guilty of this,
>>> we are in the process of correcting the situation and to start people
>>> MUST immediately comply or this will just spiral downward as we see
>>> tonight."
>>>
>>> So, for now, we make it right. We follow the rules and pay out to prove
>>> pairings. We wait longer to get to market and costs go up because repeat
>>> lab
>>> fees and repeat type specimens factor into prices per gram. I don't like
>>> it
>>> one bit but that's what we do. I will be finishing off my "likely
>>> paired"
>>> howardite as such but new specimens are already off to the lab,
>>> specimens I
>>> know are paired.
>>> While I seriously doubt the law has any holding here, the NomCom asks
>>> this
>>> of us. Bottom line, if two folks buy bread from the same baker...they're
>>>
>>> eating the same bread. The full weight of this ruling will soon be felt
>>> by
>>> all as we bog down institutions who want to study meteorites with
>>> incessant
>>> pairings, not much grant money in pairings, not much recognition. But
>>> this
>>> is what we do...for now.
>>>
>>> Rob Wesel
>>> ------------------
>>> We are the music makers...
>>> and we are the dreamers of the dreams.
>>> Willy Wonka, 1971
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Michael Farmer" <meteoritehunter_at_comcast.net>
>>> To: <meteorite-list_at_meteoritecentral.com>
>>> Sent: Saturday, November 20, 2004 7:56 PM
>>> Subject: [meteorite-list] Meteorite numbers
>>>
>>>
>>> > To clarify something that is obviously causing some problems in the
>>> > meteorite world right now, I want everyone to know that
>>> > NWA 788, 787, and NWA 482 are numbers that came from rather large or
>>> > meteorites with hundreds of pieces bought during one of my
>>> expeditions.
>>> > The Hupes and many other people have the right to those numbers.
>>> > Now, there are other numbers being widely used without proper title
>>> (as Dr
>>> > Grossman has stated publicly and with finality that people do not own
>>> > numbers, but numbers are assigned to specific meteorite specimens and
>>> must
>>> > not be used with other meteorites just because you heard or someone
>>> told
>>> > you it is the same).
>>> > Let's all please stop this practice as it is really hurting our
>>> business
>>> > and hobby. Virtually every dealer including myself has been or is
>>> guilty
>>> > of this, we are in the process of correcting the situation and to
>>> start
>>> > people MUST immediately comply or this will just spiral downward as we
>>> see
>>> > tonight.
>>> >
>>> > I perused eBay today and it is still rampant with sellers using
>>> > numbers
>>> > they seem to have drawn from a hat. So please ask you seller next time
>>> you
>>> > buy something, how they got that number, who it was assigned to and if
>>> not
>>> > them, just how they came to call it that.
>>> > Mike Farmer
>>> >
>>> > ______________________________________________
>>> > Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list_at_meteoritecentral.com
>>> > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
>>> >
>>>
>>>
>>> ______________________________________________
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>>
>>
>> Dr. Jeffrey N. Grossman phone: (703) 648-6184
>> US Geological Survey fax: (703) 648-6383
>> 954 National Center
>> Reston, VA 20192, USA
>>
>>
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>>
>
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Received on Sun 21 Nov 2004 01:56:46 PM PST