[meteorite-list] Fair Use...wasIt is ridiculous now.

From: E. L. Jones <jonee_at_meteoritecentral.com>
Date: Thu Apr 22 10:31:28 2004
Message-ID: <403D0C09.9020304_at_epix.net>

I am going to reverse myself a bit in regard to the use of the list to
"announce" these questionable auctions. I think if a list member is
contemplating acutally bidding on a particular auction, and they have
questions about authenticity, it is a good strategy to ask the list's
collective opinion. Seems to me "fair use" of this comunity.

I also agree these misidentified auctions on eBay are generating a lot
of drama and a lot of traffic which has to be deleated. (I wonder if
some of us don't actually beat our breast, gnash our teeth, and wear
sack cloth with fusion crusted ashes at the appearance of one of these
"sacreligious" auctions!)

If WE would let it work without interfering, let Ken continue his
effective approach to being our SOLE and /or IMCA ambassador to the rest
of the world. Seems he has been very successful in working with sellers
where the casual misidentification comes about and 99% of the time the
seler withdraws the auction. Al's idea of sending an invitation to join
one or more of the lists, addresses the issue of getting more folks into
the hobby. Sounds like something that could be tried. Doug's tretise
was pretty accurate yet we continue to gnash our e-teeth, and I agree
with most of what John said. They have said it the way it is and I
write this to only propose a compromise as to bringing the questionable
auctions to the attention of the list.

 I implore all, again, who are on the IMCA mailing list to keep ebay
meteorwrong discussion on that list. In some cases (e.g Galaxy, Slag,
Frass, Emerald, and the current Glassface) there is no practical remedy
for low level deliberate distortion and fraud. For whatever reason the
actual incidence of fraud in this hobby seems to be very low.

The fraud we used to see here was limited to individuals in Hong Kong
lifting vebage from websites and photos from auctions and selling
"virtual" meteorites. We complain the hobby isn't broad enough and then
when it gets broad enough for vultures to take advantage we we complain
that we can't control everything and everyone.

Thanks Gents for the perspective.

Sincerely,
Elton


David Freeman wrote:

> Dear List,
> This feller' Mr. Doug is a genious I feel. Very well put.
> Dave With an F, a big proud F.
>
> John K. Gwilliam wrote:
>
>> Doug and List,
>> I met Doug for the first time at the Tucson Show just a few weeks
>> ago. He was one of the people on my "to meet" short list because I
>> have been very impressed with his depth of vision and a superb
>> ability to express it in type.
>>
>> This is the best post I've seen in the last several years dealing
>> with the issue of Ebay and the selling of suspect meteorites. Over
>> the years, there have been several attempts by well-meaning people to
>> do something to curb the sales of non-meteoritic material as genuine
>> meteorites. All of us know what the result has been: our in-boxes
>> get filled with endless threads about so-and-so bad guy selling
>> meteorwrongs on ebay. What have we accomplished in the past, say,
>> four years? Not much. Don't get me wrong, I think it's an admirable
>> goal to want to make the wrong things in this world right, but unless
>> progress is being made and the end result matches the original goal,
>> what is the point?
>>
>> Back in 1999, a former list member started the "Meteorite Sheriff
>> Posse." He personally selected the members he wanted to be in the
>> group and then galloped off on his cyber stallion to rid Ebay of
>> fraudulent meteorite sellers. While there were some interesting
>> moments with this group, the overall result was failure and a lot of
>> wasted time.
>>
>> If the IMCA leadership think policing Ebay should be part of their
>> mission, I suggest they take a good look at what Mexico Doug has to
>> say. Personally, I think that unless a deceptive dealer is a member
>> of the IMCA, no direct action should be taken. A lot of resources
>> that could be applied in a positive and rewarding direction are being
>> used up trying to fight the bad guys one at a time.
>>
>> Thank you Doug for getting us to take a different look at an old
>> problem.
>>
>> Best,
>> John Gwilliam
>>
>> At 11:40 PM 2/23/2004 -0500, MexicoDoug_at_aol.com wrote:
>>
>>> En un mensaje con fecha 02/23/2004 1:25:22 PM Mexico Standard Time,
>>> magellon_at_earthlink.net escribe:
>>>
>>>> Unless you become a victim,
>>>> there is not a whole lot you can do legally.
>>>> And that IS sad.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I agree the situation is not very happy, though I have a different
>>> path to suggest in accomplishing the goal. I want to say you
>>> analysis was very convincing if the big hammer approach is to be
>>> tried ... enough to tempt anyone. I was very impressed with the
>>> resources available that you mentioned. But please also consider:
>>> First, what is the goal?
>>>
>>> Ebay is a giant flea market, is it not? Or does the flea market
>>> being on-line mean people have to be more ethical? I don't think
>>> the mission of eBay is to get tied up in that sticky issue any more
>>> than similar things like porn-proofing the on-line search engines at
>>> the source. Similar messes would result in a dynamic situation. I
>>> have never seen unofficial vigilante cops running around an asphalt
>>> and paint flea market, and the IMCA really has no such
>>> jurisdiction. Please don't interpret this as me cutting slack to
>>> nefarious thieves. Nothing is further from my thoughts. I think it
>>> is just an objective summary of the state of the world at the
>>> moment. So rather than changing the world, perhaps we need to drop
>>> the Policeman of the World ideas and review some other reasonable
>>> options that tend to get us where we want to, efficiently. Some
>>> ideas on the table I'd advance:
>>>
>>> 1. Who's responsibility is it to beware? Ans: the buyer
>>> 2. Does eBay permit a flea market policing authority with
>>> sanctioning power? Ans: No.
>>> 3. What is the IMCA to this? Ans: A special interest SELLER group.
>>> 4. What is it to you if you aren't the victim? a) Fulfill a desire
>>> to be a vigilante. or b) Increase your sales by giving people more
>>> confidence to pay you for your stuff and getting rid of competitors
>>> you can squeal on or c) both or d) Nothing.
>>> 5. What is it to you if you are the victim? Ans: a) Theft; b) Happy
>>> anyway ... no perceived problem.
>>>
>>> It would seem that this is only a crime when there is victim, with
>>> the possible exception of advertising fraud as already pointed out -
>>> though that is a rather overkill due to its complexity in preparing
>>> the case, a difficult route to take for a flea market, unless you
>>> are a victim, and a very mad one at that !! And it would also seem
>>> that if IMCA were to consider combating fraud within its goals, the
>>> resources should be paid for proportionally, just like the United
>>> Nations type of animal it is, based on sales. Perhaps a three tier
>>> contribution. But then again, perhaps not: Because not everyone in
>>> IMCA feels the same about paying to nail other criminals with their $.
>>>
>>> I didn't check if IMCA has in its goals to combat fraud. I would
>>> think, though, that IMCA is a positive bend, not a crime fighting
>>> bend, and as such feels strongly about fraud but does not make it a
>>> general focus for membership. Rather, IMCA I view as a positive
>>> influence saying, with us you buy with confidence. So based on the
>>> above reasoning, I would enter the idea that all IMCA members
>>> interested in policing the eBay world start an anti-fraud squad
>>> (best under IMCA, of course) where everyone has that one sole
>>> purpose. Now the three tier funding works whether in $ or in
>>> hours...but how to spend it efficiently? ...
>>>
>>> The real complaint seems to me to be in part that IMCA is not being
>>> marketed as well as many wish it could. Well ... maybe it should
>>> scrap that idea of being vigilantes and work on improving marketing
>>> efforts. For example every time I make a search on Google for
>>> meteorites up pops "I buy, sell and trade meteorites," by one
>>> distinguished member who has his marketing act together. Why don't
>>> I see the IMCA there, too. "We are a non-profit organization
>>> helping buyers get authentic meteorites. Click for a free guide
>>> on-line auction fraud and eBay offenders."
>>>
>>> How much could that cost? Less than the policing effort? I would
>>> think so. And speaking of the policing effort, I wouldn't stop
>>> there if I had nothing else to do. No inventing of clever ways to
>>> alert bidders... A wrong plus another wrong doesn't always work
>>> well. Rather, perhaps a little patience, and then follow-up to the
>>> buyers who were truly robbed. Subject "International Meteorite
>>> Collectors Association" Dear fellow meteorite enthusiast: We are
>>> the IMCA, an organization, bla bla bla dedicated to authenticity
>>> with a special group that polices on-line auction fraud. Several
>>> members routinely peruse eBay auctions and bring fraud to attention
>>> when it is suspected. While we recognize some buyers may not be
>>> concerned with the authenticity of their recent meteorite purchase
>>> for their own personal reasons, we direct this message to those who
>>> are concerned with authenticity. First, IMCA agrees with the
>>> definition in ______ dictionary: A rock or iron originating from
>>> outer space that can be proven to have fallen to earth as a meteor,
>>> after surviving passage through the Earth's atmosphere. If this is
>>> what you intended to purchase, we feel there is evidence that you
>>> may have been the victim of fraud. We would like to refer you to
>>> our organization's web site where we list all the recent suspected
>>> fraudulent ebay Sellers and a description of the suspected theft of
>>> unsuspecting bidders as reported by our individual members. (Link:
>>> IMCA eBay Gallery of Rogue Sellers). If this concerns you and you
>>> become convinced that it is in your interest not to pay for
>>> fraudulent specimens, we also would invite you to allow us to assist
>>> you (Link: Steps in backing out of an auction you have won when you
>>> discover after winning that the material is fake) in not losing your
>>> money to this suspected fraudulent meteorite, and to leave the
>>> corresponding feedback for the Seller.
>>> Note, that while members of the IMCA are frequently meteorite
>>> sellers, the IMCA does not charge for this service to those
>>> interested in making claims for material we suspect as fradulent.
>>> At no time will we ask you for money, passwords, or to buy
>>> anything. This is not Spam to sell meteorites. We offer this
>>> service as a benefit to our members carrying the IMCA logo in their
>>> eBay auctions to keep our small industry with a relatively limited
>>> pool of sellers fraud free as possible, some of which participate on
>>> eBay, so that trust may be built among buyers of meteorites and
>>> increase the overall satisfaction in on-line meteorite purchases.
>>> Thank you for your time and should you have any questions regarding
>>> on-line meteorite fraud or rogues, please send them to IMCA_at_imca.org
>>> for a prompt reply. This is the only message you will receive from
>>> the IMCA regarding your transaction if you do not respond. You are
>>> not on any mailing list and this is a single personal message from
>>> the IMCA Anti-fraud squad, which suspects your recent purchase to be
>>> a fake. Sincerely, IMCA (Link: anti-fraud squad membership,
>>> without affiliations)
>>>
>>> Later, on the website, any and all cases cracked with IMCA help to
>>> victims would be listed protecting the name of the victim but not
>>> the perpetrator (who the victim can provide the name of).
>>>
>>> Hope this helps. Seems a bit more realistic if IMCA wants to get
>>> involved (with website and ebay ID to be able to send emails to ebay
>>> users), and no gray purchases of junk are required. Plus those that
>>> don't want or need help ... well, who really cares ... they aren't
>>> victims really anyway...
>>>
>>> Saludos
>>> Doug
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
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Received on Wed 25 Feb 2004 03:56:41 PM PST