Spam Alert: Re: [meteorite-list] It is ridiculous now.

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From: magellon <magellon_at_meteoritecentral.com>
Date: Thu Apr 22 10:31:27 2004
Message-ID: <403B904C.772DF238_at_earthlink.net>

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Doug,
I want to applaud your suggestion. I have
tried something similar on my web site.
I listed current questionable auctions.
However, I could not contact the people that
were bidding or had purchased due to ebay rules.

eBay Policy

 "* Members are not allowed to interfere
 with another member's transaction.
 * Members are not permitted to email buyers
in an open or completed transaction to warn
them away from a seller or item. If you have a
problem with a transaction, please use the
feedback forum and review our Fraud Protection
Program. "

Also, I learned the hard way that my web site
could also be used against me. My decision was
to limit it only to IMCA members, but have been too
busy to work on it lately. I am convinced that it is wise
to keep any negative info within the bounds of IMCA.
IMCA has a closed forum that allows its members
to be warned in advance. I run auctions, the purpose
to direct interested ones to IMCA membership.

This glassface1 can burn some newbies.
However, those burnt will learn of IMCA and ask
for membership.

If there are legal ways to help, I am open to
suggestions. I really like "We are a non-profit organization
helping buyers get authentic meteorites." A web
page or two devoted to what to look for, what to
ask, when to walk away, etc. would be nice!

Best,
Ken Newton
http://www.imca.cc/

MexicoDoug_at_aol.com wrote:

> En un mensaje con fecha 02/23/2004 1:25:22 PM Mexico Standard Time,
> magellon_at_earthlink.net escribe:
>
>
>> Unless you become a victim,
>> there is not a whole lot you can do legally.
>> And that IS sad.
>
> I agree the situation is not very happy, though I have a different
> path to suggest in accomplishing the goal. I want to say you analysis
> was very convincing if the big hammer approach is to be tried ...
> enough to tempt anyone. I was very impressed with the resources
> available that you mentioned. But please also consider: First, what
> is the goal?
>
> Ebay is a giant flea market, is it not? Or does the flea market being
> on-line mean people have to be more ethical? I don't think the
> mission of eBay is to get tied up in that sticky issue any more than
> similar things like porn-proofing the on-line search engines at the
> source. Similar messes would result in a dynamic situation. I have
> never seen unofficial vigilante cops running around an asphalt and
> paint flea market, and the IMCA really has no such jurisdiction.
> Please don't interpret this as me cutting slack to nefarious thieves.
> Nothing is further from my thoughts. I think it is just an objective
> summary of the state of the world at the moment. So rather than
> changing the world, perhaps we need to drop the Policeman of the World
> ideas and review some other reasonable options that tend to get us
> where we want to, efficiently. Some ideas on the table I'd advance:
>
> 1. Who's responsibility is it to beware? Ans: the buyer
> 2. Does eBay permit a flea market policing authority with sanctioning
> power? Ans: No.
> 3. What is the IMCA to this? Ans: A special interest SELLER group.
> 4. What is it to you if you aren't the victim? a) Fulfill a desire
> to be a vigilante. or b) Increase your sales by giving people more
> confidence to pay you for your stuff and getting rid of competitors
> you can squeal on or c) both or d) Nothing.
> 5. What is it to you if you are the victim? Ans: a) Theft; b) Happy
> anyway ... no perceived problem.
>
> It would seem that this is only a crime when there is victim, with the
> possible exception of advertising fraud as already pointed out -
> though that is a rather overkill due to its complexity in preparing
> the case, a difficult route to take for a flea market, unless you are
> a victim, and a very mad one at that !! And it would also seem that
> if IMCA were to consider combating fraud within its goals, the
> resources should be paid for proportionally, just like the United
> Nations type of animal it is, based on sales. Perhaps a three tier
> contribution. But then again, perhaps not: Because not everyone in
> IMCA feels the same about paying to nail other criminals with their $.
>
> I didn't check if IMCA has in its goals to combat fraud. I would
> think, though, that IMCA is a positive bend, not a crime fighting
> bend, and as such feels strongly about fraud but does not make it a
> general focus for membership. Rather, IMCA I view as a positive
> influence saying, with us you buy with confidence. So based on the
> above reasoning, I would enter the idea that all IMCA members
> interested in policing the eBay world start an anti-fraud squad (best
> under IMCA, of course) where everyone has that one sole purpose. Now
> the three tier funding works whether in $ or in hours...but how to
> spend it efficiently? ...
>
> The real complaint seems to me to be in part that IMCA is not being
> marketed as well as many wish it could. Well ... maybe it should
> scrap that idea of being vigilantes and work on improving marketing
> efforts. For example every time I make a search on Google for
> meteorites up pops "I buy, sell and trade meteorites," by one
> distinguished member who has his marketing act together. Why don't I
> see the IMCA there, too. "We are a non-profit organization helping
> buyers get authentic meteorites. Click for a free guide on-line
> auction fraud and eBay offenders."
>
> How much could that cost? Less than the policing effort? I would
> think so. And speaking of the policing effort, I wouldn't stop there
> if I had nothing else to do. No inventing of clever ways to alert
> bidders... A wrong plus another wrong doesn't always work well.
> Rather, perhaps a little patience, and then follow-up to the buyers
> who were truly robbed. Subject "International Meteorite Collectors
> Association" Dear fellow meteorite enthusiast: We are the IMCA, an
> organization, bla bla bla dedicated to authenticity with a special
> group that polices on-line auction fraud. Several members routinely
> peruse eBay auctions and bring fraud to attention when it is
> suspected. While we recognize some buyers may not be concerned with
> the authenticity of their recent meteorite purchase for their own
> personal reasons, we direct this message to those who are concerned
> with authenticity. First, IMCA agrees with the definition in ______
> dictionary: A rock or iron originating from outer space that can be
> proven to have fallen to earth as a meteor, after surviving passage
> through the Earth's atmosphere. If this is what you intended to
> purchase, we feel there is evidence that you may have been the victim
> of fraud. We would like to refer you to our organization's web site
> where we list all the recent suspected fraudulent ebay Sellers and a
> description of the suspected theft of unsuspecting bidders as reported
> by our individual members. (Link: IMCA eBay Gallery of Rogue
> Sellers). If this concerns you and you become convinced that it is in
> your interest not to pay for fraudulent specimens, we also would
> invite you to allow us to assist you (Link: Steps in backing out of an
> auction you have won when you discover after winning that the material
> is fake) in not losing your money to this suspected fraudulent
> meteorite, and to leave the corresponding feedback for the Seller.
> Note, that while members of the IMCA are frequently meteorite sellers,
> the IMCA does not charge for this service to those interested in
> making claims for material we suspect as fradulent. At no time will
> we ask you for money, passwords, or to buy anything. This is not Spam
> to sell meteorites. We offer this service as a benefit to our members
> carrying the IMCA logo in their eBay auctions to keep our small
> industry with a relatively limited pool of sellers fraud free as
> possible, some of which participate on eBay, so that trust may be
> built among buyers of meteorites and increase the overall satisfaction
> in on-line meteorite purchases. Thank you for your time and should
> you have any questions regarding on-line meteorite fraud or rogues,
> please send them to IMCA_at_imca.org for a prompt reply. This is the
> only message you will receive from the IMCA regarding your transaction
> if you do not respond. You are not on any mailing list and this is a
> single personal message from the IMCA Anti-fraud squad, which suspects
> your recent purchase to be a fake. Sincerely, IMCA (Link: anti-fraud
> squad membership, without affiliations)
>
> Later, on the website, any and all cases cracked with IMCA help to
> victims would be listed protecting the name of the victim but not the
> perpetrator (who the victim can provide the name of).
>
> Hope this helps. Seems a bit more realistic if IMCA wants to get
> involved (with website and ebay ID to be able to send emails to ebay
> users), and no gray purchases of junk are required. Plus those that
> don't want or need help ... well, who really cares ... they aren't
> victims really anyway...
>
> Saludos
> Doug

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<!doctype html public "-//w3c//dtd html 4.0 transitional//en">
<html>
Doug,
 I want to applaud your suggestion. I have
 tried something similar on my web site.
 I listed current questionable auctions.
 However, I could not contact the people that
 were bidding or had purchased due to ebay rules.
eBay Policy
  "* Members are not allowed to interfere
       with another member's transaction.
     * Members are not permitted to email buyers
  in an open or completed transaction to warn
 them away from a seller or item. If you have a
 problem with a transaction, please use the
 feedback forum and review our Fraud Protection
 Program. "
Also,  I learned the hard way that my web site
 could also be used against me. My decision was
 to limit it only to IMCA members, but have been too
 busy to work on it lately. I am convinced that it is wise
 to keep any negative info within the bounds of IMCA.
 IMCA has a closed forum that allows its members
 to be warned in advance. I run auctions,  the purpose
 to direct interested ones to IMCA membership.
This glassface1 can burn some newbies.
 However, those burnt will learn of IMCA and ask
 for membership.
If there are legal ways to help, I am open to
 suggestions. I really like "We are a non-profit
organization
 helping buyers get authentic meteorites." A web
 page or two devoted to what to look for, what 
to
 ask, when to walk away, etc. would be nice!
Best,
 Ken Newton
 <A HREF="http://www.imca.cc/">http://www.imca.cc/</A>
  
MexicoDoug_at_aol.com wrote:
<blockquote TYPE=CITE>En un mensaje con
fecha 02/23/2004 1:25:22 PM Mexico Standard Time, magellon_at_earthlink.net
escribe:
  
<blockquote TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">Unless
you become a victim,
 there is not a whole lot you can do
legally.
 And that IS sad.</blockquote>

I agree the situation is not very happy,
though I have a different path to suggest in accomplishing the goal. 
I want to say you analysis was very convincing if the big hammer approach
is to be tried ... enough to tempt anyone.  I was very impressed with
the resources available that you mentioned.  But please also consider: 
First, what is the goal?
Ebay is a giant flea market, is it
not?  Or does the flea market being on-line mean people have to be
more ethical?  I don't think the mission of eBay is to get tied up
in that sticky issue any more than similar things like porn-proofing the
on-line search engines at the source.  Similar messes would result
in a dynamic situation.  I have never seen unofficial vigilante cops
running around an asphalt and paint flea market, and the IMCA really has
no such jurisdiction.  Please don't interpret this as me cutting slack
to nefarious thieves.  Nothing is further from my thoughts. 
I think it is just an objective summary of the state of the world at the
moment.  So rather than changing the world, perhaps we need to drop
the Policeman of the World ideas and review some other reasonable options
that tend to get us where we want to, efficiently.  Some ideas on
the table I'd advance:
1.  Who's responsibility is it
to beware?  Ans: the buyer
 2.  Does eBay permit a flea market
policing authority with sanctioning power? Ans: No.
 3.  What is the IMCA to this?
Ans: A special interest SELLER group.
 4.  What is it to you if you
aren't the victim?  a) Fulfill a desire to be a vigilante. or b) Increase
your sales by giving people more confidence to pay you for your stuff and
getting rid of competitors you can squeal on or c) both or d) Nothing.
 5.  What is it to you if you
are the victim? Ans: a) Theft; b) Happy anyway ... no perceived problem.
It would seem that this is only a crime
when there is victim, with the possible exception of advertising fraud
as already pointed out - though that is a rather overkill due to its complexity
in preparing the case, a difficult route to take for a flea market, unless
you are a victim, and a very mad one at that !!  And it would also
seem that if IMCA were to consider combating fraud within its goals, the
resources should be paid for proportionally, just like the United Nations
type of animal it is, based on sales.  Perhaps a three tier contribution. 
But then again, perhaps not: Because not everyone in IMCA feels the same
about paying to nail other criminals with their $.
I didn't check if IMCA has in its goals
to combat fraud.  I would think, though, that IMCA is a positive bend,
not a crime fighting bend, and as such feels strongly about fraud but does
not make it a general focus for membership.  Rather, IMCA I view as
a positive influence saying, with us you buy with confidence.  So
based on the above reasoning, I would enter the idea that all IMCA members
interested in policing the eBay world start an anti-fraud squad (best under
IMCA, of course) where everyone has that one sole purpose.  Now the
three tier funding works whether in $ or in hours...but how to spend it
efficiently? ...
The real complaint seems to me to be
in part that IMCA is not being marketed as well as many wish it could. 
Well ... maybe it should scrap that idea of being vigilantes and work on
improving marketing efforts.  For example every time I make a search
on Google for meteorites up pops "I buy, sell and trade meteorites," by
one distinguished member who has his marketing act together.  Why
don't I see the IMCA there, too.  "We are a non-profit organization
helping buyers get authentic meteorites.  Click for a free guide on-line
auction fraud and eBay offenders."
How much could that cost?  Less
than the policing effort?  I would think so.  And speaking of
the policing effort, I wouldn't stop there if I had nothing else to do. 
No inventing of clever ways to alert bidders... A wrong plus another wrong
doesn't always work well.  Rather, perhaps a little patience, and
then follow-up to the buyers who were truly robbed.  Subject "International
Meteorite Collectors Association"  Dear fellow meteorite enthusiast: 
We are the IMCA, an organization, bla bla bla dedicated to authenticity
with a special group that polices on-line auction fraud.  Several
members routinely peruse eBay auctions and bring fraud to attention when
it is suspected.  While we recognize some buyers may not be concerned
with the authenticity of their recent meteorite purchase for their own
personal reasons, we direct this message to those who are concerned with
authenticity.  First, IMCA agrees with the definition in ______ dictionary: 
A rock or iron originating from outer space that can be proven to have
fallen to earth as a meteor, after surviving passage through the Earth's
atmosphere.  If this is what you intended to purchase, we feel there
is evidence that you may have been the victim of fraud.  We would
like to refer you to our organization's web site where we list all the
recent suspected fraudulent ebay Sellers and a description of the suspected
theft of unsuspecting bidders as reported by our individual members. 
(Link: IMCA eBay Gallery of Rogue Sellers).  If this concerns you
and you become convinced that it is in your interest not to pay for fraudulent
specimens, we also would invite you to allow us to assist you (Link: Steps
in backing out of an auction you have won when you discover after winning
that the material is fake) in not losing your money to this suspected fraudulent
meteorite, and to leave the corresponding feedback for the Seller.
 Note, that while members of the IMCA
are frequently meteorite sellers, the IMCA does not charge for this service
to those interested in making claims for material we suspect as fradulent. 
At no time will we ask you for money, passwords, or to buy anything. 
This is not Spam to sell meteorites.  We offer this service as a benefit
to our members carrying the IMCA logo in their eBay auctions to keep our
small industry with a relatively limited pool of sellers fraud free as
possible, some of which participate on eBay, so that trust may be built
among buyers of meteorites and increase the overall satisfaction in on-line
meteorite purchases.  Thank you for your time and should you have
any questions regarding on-line meteorite fraud or rogues, please send
them to IMCA_at_imca.org for a prompt reply.  This is the only message
you will receive from the IMCA regarding your transaction if you do not
respond.  You are not on any mailing list and this is a single personal
message from the IMCA Anti-fraud squad, which suspects your recent purchase
to be a fake.   Sincerely, IMCA (Link: anti-fraud squad membership,
without affiliations)
Later, on the website, any and all
cases cracked with IMCA help to victims would be listed protecting the
name of the victim but not the perpetrator (who the victim can provide
the name of).
Hope this helps.  Seems a bit
more realistic if IMCA wants to get involved (with website and ebay ID
to be able to send emails to ebay users), and no gray purchases of junk
are required.  Plus those that don't want or need help ... well, who
really cares ... they aren't victims really anyway...
Saludos
 Doug</blockquote>
</html>

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Received on Tue 24 Feb 2004 12:56:29 PM PST

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