[meteorite-list] It is ridiculous now.

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From: MexicoDoug_at_aol.com <MexicoDoug_at_meteoritecentral.com>
Date: Thu Apr 22 10:31:27 2004
Message-ID: <7b.2335e4dc.2d6c2fd6_at_aol.com>

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En un mensaje con fecha 02/23/2004 1:25:22 PM Mexico Standard Time,
magellon_at_earthlink.net escribe:

> Unless you become a victim,
> there is not a whole lot you can do legally.
> And that IS sad.

I agree the situation is not very happy, though I have a different path to
suggest in accomplishing the goal. I want to say you analysis was very
convincing if the big hammer approach is to be tried ... enough to tempt anyone. I
was very impressed with the resources available that you mentioned. But please
also consider: First, what is the goal?

Ebay is a giant flea market, is it not? Or does the flea market being
on-line mean people have to be more ethical? I don't think the mission of eBay is
to get tied up in that sticky issue any more than similar things like
porn-proofing the on-line search engines at the source. Similar messes would result in
a dynamic situation. I have never seen unofficial vigilante cops running
around an asphalt and paint flea market, and the IMCA really has no such
jurisdiction. Please don't interpret this as me cutting slack to nefarious thieves.
Nothing is further from my thoughts. I think it is just an objective summary
of the state of the world at the moment. So rather than changing the world,
perhaps we need to drop the Policeman of the World ideas and review some other
reasonable options that tend to get us where we want to, efficiently. Some
ideas on the table I'd advance:

1. Who's responsibility is it to beware? Ans: the buyer
2. Does eBay permit a flea market policing authority with sanctioning power?
Ans: No.
3. What is the IMCA to this? Ans: A special interest SELLER group.
4. What is it to you if you aren't the victim? a) Fulfill a desire to be a
vigilante. or b) Increase your sales by giving people more confidence to pay
you for your stuff and getting rid of competitors you can squeal on or c) both
or d) Nothing.
5. What is it to you if you are the victim? Ans: a) Theft; b) Happy anyway
... no perceived problem.

It would seem that this is only a crime when there is victim, with the
possible exception of advertising fraud as already pointed out - though that is a
rather overkill due to its complexity in preparing the case, a difficult route
to take for a flea market, unless you are a victim, and a very mad one at that
!! And it would also seem that if IMCA were to consider combating fraud
within its goals, the resources should be paid for proportionally, just like the
United Nations type of animal it is, based on sales. Perhaps a three tier
contribution. But then again, perhaps not: Because not everyone in IMCA feels the
same about paying to nail other criminals with their $.

I didn't check if IMCA has in its goals to combat fraud. I would think,
though, that IMCA is a positive bend, not a crime fighting bend, and as such feels
strongly about fraud but does not make it a general focus for membership.
Rather, IMCA I view as a positive influence saying, with us you buy with
confidence. So based on the above reasoning, I would enter the idea that all IMCA
members interested in policing the eBay world start an anti-fraud squad (best
under IMCA, of course) where everyone has that one sole purpose. Now the three
tier funding works whether in $ or in hours...but how to spend it efficiently?
...

The real complaint seems to me to be in part that IMCA is not being marketed
as well as many wish it could. Well ... maybe it should scrap that idea of
being vigilantes and work on improving marketing efforts. For example every
time I make a search on Google for meteorites up pops "I buy, sell and trade
meteorites," by one distinguished member who has his marketing act together. Why
don't I see the IMCA there, too. "We are a non-profit organization helping
buyers get authentic meteorites. Click for a free guide on-line auction fraud
and eBay offenders."

How much could that cost? Less than the policing effort? I would think so.
And speaking of the policing effort, I wouldn't stop there if I had nothing
else to do. No inventing of clever ways to alert bidders... A wrong plus
another wrong doesn't always work well. Rather, perhaps a little patience, and
then follow-up to the buyers who were truly robbed. Subject "International
Meteorite Collectors Association" Dear fellow meteorite enthusiast: We are the
IMCA, an organization, bla bla bla dedicated to authenticity with a special
group that polices on-line auction fraud. Several members routinely peruse eBay
auctions and bring fraud to attention when it is suspected. While we recognize
some buyers may not be concerned with the authenticity of their recent
meteorite purchase for their own personal reasons, we direct this message to those
who are concerned with authenticity. First, IMCA agrees with the definition in
______ dictionary: A rock or iron originating from outer space that can be
proven to have fallen to earth as a meteor, after surviving passage through the
Earth's atmosphere. If this is what you intended to purchase, we feel there
is evidence that you may have been the victim of fraud. We would like to
refer you to our organization's web site where we list all the recent suspected
fraudulent ebay Sellers and a description of the suspected theft of unsuspecting
bidders as reported by our individual members. (Link: IMCA eBay Gallery of
Rogue Sellers). If this concerns you and you become convinced that it is in
your interest not to pay for fraudulent specimens, we also would invite you to
allow us to assist you (Link: Steps in backing out of an auction you have won
when you discover after winning that the material is fake) in not losing your
money to this suspected fraudulent meteorite, and to leave the corresponding
feedback for the Seller.
Note, that while members of the IMCA are frequently meteorite sellers, the
IMCA does not charge for this service to those interested in making claims for
material we suspect as fradulent. At no time will we ask you for money,
passwords, or to buy anything. This is not Spam to sell meteorites. We offer this
service as a benefit to our members carrying the IMCA logo in their eBay
auctions to keep our small industry with a relatively limited pool of sellers fraud
free as possible, some of which participate on eBay, so that trust may be
built among buyers of meteorites and increase the overall satisfaction in on-line
meteorite purchases. Thank you for your time and should you have any
questions regarding on-line meteorite fraud or rogues, please send them to
IMCA_at_imca.org for a prompt reply. This is the only message you will receive from the
IMCA regarding your transaction if you do not respond. You are not on any
mailing list and this is a single personal message from the IMCA Anti-fraud squad,
which suspects your recent purchase to be a fake. Sincerely, IMCA (Link:
anti-fraud squad membership, without affiliations)

Later, on the website, any and all cases cracked with IMCA help to victims
would be listed protecting the name of the victim but not the perpetrator (who
the victim can provide the name of).

Hope this helps. Seems a bit more realistic if IMCA wants to get involved
(with website and ebay ID to be able to send emails to ebay users), and no gray
purchases of junk are required. Plus those that don't want or need help ...
well, who really cares ... they aren't victims really anyway...

Saludos
Doug

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<HTML><HTML>En un mensaje con fecha 02/23/2004=20=
1:25:22 PM Mexico Standard Time, magellon_at_earthlink.net escribe: 
 
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT=
: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">Unless you become a victim, <BR=
>
there is not a whole lot you can do legally. 
And that IS sad. </BLOCKQUOTE> 
 
I agree the situation is not very happy, though I have a different path to s=
uggest in accomplishing the goal.  I want to say you analysis was very=20=
convincing if the big hammer approach is to be tried ... enough to tempt any=
one.  I was very impressed with the resources available that you mentio=
ned.  But please also consider:  First, what is the goal? 
 
Ebay is a giant flea market, is it not?  Or does the flea market being=20=
on-line mean people have to be more ethical?  I don't think the mission=
of eBay is to get tied up in that sticky issue any more than similar things=
like porn-proofing the on-line search engines at the source.  Similar=20=
messes would result in a dynamic situation.  I have never seen unoffici=
al vigilante cops running around an asphalt and paint flea market, and the I=
MCA really has no such jurisdiction.  Please don't interpret this as me=
cutting slack to nefarious thieves.  Nothing is further from my though=
ts.  I think it is just an objective summary of the state of the world=20=
at the moment.  So rather than changing the world, perhaps we need to d=
rop the Policeman of the World ideas and review some other reasonable option=
s that tend to get us where we want to, efficiently.  Some ideas on the=
table I'd advance: 
 
1.  Who's responsibility is it to beware?  Ans: the buyer 
2.  Does eBay permit a flea market policing authority with sanctioning=20=
power? Ans: No. 
3.  What is the IMCA to this? Ans: A special interest SELLER group. 
4.  What is it to you if you aren't the victim?  a) Fulfill a desi=
re to be a vigilante. or b) Increase your sales by giving people more confid=
ence to pay you for your stuff and getting rid of competitors you can squeal=
on or c) both or d) Nothing. 
5.  What is it to you if you are the victim? Ans: a) Theft; b) Happy an=
yway ... no perceived problem. 
 
It would seem that this is only a crime when there is victim, with the possi=
ble exception of advertising fraud as already pointed out - though that is a=
rather overkill due to its complexity in preparing the case, a difficult ro=
ute to take for a flea market, unless you are a victim, and a very mad one a=
t that !!  And it would also seem that if IMCA were to consider combati=
ng fraud within its goals, the resources should be paid for proportionally,=20=
just like the United Nations type of animal it is, based on sales.  Per=
haps a three tier contribution.  But then again, perhaps not: Because n=
ot everyone in IMCA feels the same about paying to nail other criminals with=
their $. 
 
I didn't check if IMCA has in its goals to combat fraud.  I would think=
, though, that IMCA is a positive bend, not a crime fighting bend, and as su=
ch feels strongly about fraud but does not make it a general focus for membe=
rship.  Rather, IMCA I view as a positive influence saying, with us you=
buy with confidence.  So based on the above reasoning, I would enter t=
he idea that all IMCA members interested in policing the eBay world start an=
anti-fraud squad (best under IMCA, of course) where everyone has that one s=
ole purpose.  Now the three tier funding works whether in $ or in hours=
...but how to spend it efficiently? ... 
 
The real complaint seems to me to be in part that IMCA is not being marketed=
as well as many wish it could.  Well ... maybe it should scrap that id=
ea of being vigilantes and work on improving marketing efforts.  For ex=
ample every time I make a search on Google for meteorites up pops "I buy, se=
ll and trade meteorites," by one distinguished member who has his marketing=20=
act together.  Why don't I see the IMCA there, too.  "We are a non=
-profit organization helping buyers get authentic meteorites.  Click fo=
r a free guide on-line auction fraud and eBay offenders." 
 
How much could that cost?  Less than the policing effort?  I would=
think so.  And speaking of the policing effort, I wouldn't stop there=20=
if I had nothing else to do.  No inventing of clever ways to alert bidd=
ers... A wrong plus another wrong doesn't always work well.  Rather, pe=
rhaps a little patience, and then follow-up to the buyers who were truly rob=
bed.  Subject "International Meteorite Collectors Association"  De=
ar fellow meteorite enthusiast:  We are the IMCA, an organization, bla=20=
bla bla dedicated to authenticity with a special group that polices on-line=20=
auction fraud.  Several members routinely peruse eBay auctions and brin=
g fraud to attention when it is suspected.  While we recognize some buy=
ers may not be concerned with the authenticity of their recent meteorite pur=
chase for their own personal reasons, we direct this message to those who ar=
e concerned with authenticity.  First, IMCA agrees with the definition=20=
in ______ dictionary:  A rock or iron originating from outer space that=
can be proven to have fallen to earth as a meteor, after surviving passage=20=
through the Earth's atmosphere.  If this is what you intended to purcha=
se, we feel there is evidence that you may have been the victim of fraud.&nb=
sp; We would like to refer you to our organization's web site where we list=20=
all the recent suspected fraudulent ebay Sellers and a description of the su=
spected theft of unsuspecting bidders as reported by our individual members.=
  (Link: IMCA eBay Gallery of Rogue Sellers).  If this concerns yo=
u and you become convinced that it is in your interest not to pay for fraudu=
lent specimens, we also would invite you to allow us to assist you (Link: St=
eps in backing out of an auction you have won when you discover after winnin=
g that the material is fake) in not losing your money to this suspected frau=
dulent meteorite, and to leave the corresponding feedback for the Seller.<BR=
>
Note, that while members of the IMCA are frequently meteorite sellers, the I=
MCA does not charge for this service to those interested in making claims fo=
r material we suspect as fradulent.  At no time will we ask you for mon=
ey, passwords, or to buy anything.  This is not Spam to sell meteorites=
.  We offer this service as a benefit to our members carrying the IMCA=20=
logo in their eBay auctions to keep our small industry with a relatively lim=
ited pool of sellers fraud free as possible, some of which participate on eB=
ay, so that trust may be built among buyers of meteorites and increase the o=
verall satisfaction in on-line meteorite purchases.  Thank you for your=
time and should you have any questions regarding on-line meteorite fraud or=
rogues, please send them to IMCA_at_imca.org for a prompt reply.  This is=
the only message you will receive from the IMCA regarding your transaction=20=
if you do not respond.  You are not on any mailing list and this is a s=
ingle personal message from the IMCA Anti-fraud squad, which suspects your r=
ecent purchase to be a fake.   Sincerely, IMCA (Link: anti-fraud s=
quad membership, without affiliations) 
 
Later, on the website, any and all cases cracked with IMCA help to victims w=
ould be listed protecting the name of the victim but not the perpetrator (wh=
o the victim can provide the name of). 
 
Hope this helps.  Seems a bit more realistic if IMCA wants to get invol=
ved (with website and ebay ID to be able to send emails to ebay users), and=20=
no gray purchases of junk are required.  Plus those that don't want or=20=
need help ... well, who really cares ... they aren't victims really anyway..=
. 
 
Saludos 
Doug 
</HTML>
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Received on Mon 23 Feb 2004 11:40:54 PM PST

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