[meteorite-list] Wales images

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From: Charles R. Viau <cviau_at_meteoritecentral.com>
Date: Thu Apr 22 10:28:22 2004
Message-ID: <005801c38b09$7248b540$1800a8c0_at_chupa>

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What looks bad for the object being an aircraft:

I have 2k hours in Lockheed P2/P3 ASW aircraft flight time under my belt
from service 1969 to 1977, and I have seen all types of contrails,
flying under, over, around and even through them. Never, have I seen one
like this. This, of course does not mean that it is not one, however at
the original picture taker's location, the trail is just too thick and
dense. Aircraft contrails just don't look like that. If anything , it
looks more like what you would expect out of a rocket plume.. or, a real
bolide smoke trail.

Also, about sunlight: Look at a close-up of the trail behind the
illuminated head (again, in the first shot). Aircraft contrails are
really much thinner in water vapor volume than most clouds, so it
seems that the sun should have shown completely through this tail, and
not have been blocked from illuminating the whole tail if it was
produced by an aircraft and sunlight.
Instead, you see this illumination above, below and intermixed in the
tail. That looks like a hot combusting gas. Additionally, the after
shot, from the same location which was said to have been taken minute
later shows the terminal point of this tail expanded almost double in
size and ends very abruptly. Aircraft contrails that start and end over
the course of flight seem to look like fade in's and out's, (like an
oscilloscope view of a waveform) never just a sudden stop, with a giant
plume at the end. The after shot also shows a marked down angle twist
between the head and tail, which may indeed support a twisting of the
tail through wind levels at altitude. The bright illuminated plume could
be caused by the sun, but at the exact terminal point? Possible but
doubtful, and with that intensity?, even more doubtful.

What looks bad for the object being a bolide:

The third backup shot, taken 16km or so away looks more like an aircraft
contrail, but it is downrange , making it very difficult to tell what
made it. This object cannot be at a very high altitude. The first 2
shots were taken with a zoom, the third, from a wide field cellphone
lens. The first 2 shots have more of a right angle to the trajectory
and appears to be about double the angle from the ground than the third
which is taken downrange . Even if the first 2 shots were taken almost
directly under the objects head, it most likely is no more than 6 km in
altitude.

One thing that could be done to either support or reject the aircraft
contrail theory would be to get the air traffic logs for that area and
see what was flying west, between those 2 towns at the time the pictures
were taken.

Also, if it was a bolide, then some IR satellite had to have got a
signature from this.

This is an incredibly interesting process, hope we get some more real
data.

CharlyV
-----Original Message-----
From: meteorite-list-admin_at_meteoritecentral.com
[mailto:meteorite-list-admin_at_meteoritecentral.com] On Behalf Of
GeoZay_at_aol.com
Sent: Saturday, October 04, 2003 9:20 PM
To: meteorite-list_at_meteoritecentral.com
Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Wales images

In a message dated 10/4/2003 6:00:17 PM Pacific Standard Time,
daistiho_at_hotmail.com writes:

>>Would the photographers have necessarily gone back to note if the
train was
"twisting", as bolide trails usually do? If they had no experience (as
seems likely) with residual smoke trains from meteors, it might not have

struck them as important to note or document.<<

They wouldn't have to "go back" to note the train was twisting...it
surely would become obvious as the seconds ticked off. The process of
train twisting is quite dynamic. They wouldn't have had to note this as
being important to note or document...it would have seem strange and odd
and couldn't help but be noted. If a fireball train was twisting like a
writhing snake, it would stick in my mind to note whether someone wanted
me to or not.
George Zay

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<o:p> </o:p>=


<o:p> </o:p>

What looks bad for the object being =
an aircraft:<o:p></o:p>

<o:p> </o:p>

I have 2k hours in Lockheed P2/P3 =
ASW
aircraft flight time under my belt from service 1969 to 1977, and I have =
seen
all types of contrails, flying under, over, around and even through =
them.
Never, have I seen one like this.  This, of course does not mean =
that it is
not one, however at the original picture taker’s location, the =
trail is
just too thick and dense. Aircraft contrails just don’t look like =
that.
If anything , it looks more like what you =
would expect
out of a rocket plume.. or, a real bolide
smoke trail. <o:p></o:p>

<o:p> </o:p>

Also, about sunlight:  Look at a close-up of the trail =
behind
the illuminated head (again, in the first shot). Aircraft contrails are =
really
much thinner in water vapor volume than  most clouds,  so it seems that the sun should
have  shown completely =
through this
tail,  and not have been =
blocked
from illuminating the whole tail if it was produced by an aircraft and =
sunlight.<o:p></o:p>

Instead, you see this illumination =
above,
below and intermixed in the tail. That looks like a hot combusting gas. =
Additionally,
the after shot, from the same location which was said to have been taken =
minute
later shows the terminal point of this tail expanded almost double in =
size and
ends very abruptly.  Aircraft
contrails that start and end over the course of flight seem to look like =
fade in’s and out’s, (like an oscilloscope =
view of a
waveform) never just a sudden stop, with a giant plume at the end.  The after shot also shows a =
marked down
angle twist between the head and tail, which may indeed =
<st1:PersonName>support</st1:PersonName> a
twisting of the tail through wind levels at altitude. The bright =
illuminated
plume could be caused by the sun, but at the exact terminal point?  Possible but doubtful, and with =
that
intensity?, even more =
doubtful.<o:p></o:p>

<o:p> </o:p>

What looks bad for the object being =
a  bolide:<o:p></o:p>

<o:p> </o:p>

The third backup shot, taken 16km =
or so
away looks more like an aircraft contrail, but it is downrange
, making it very difficult to tell what made it.  This object cannot be at a very =
high
altitude. The first 2 shots were taken with a zoom, the third, from a =
wide
field cellphone lens.  The first 2 shots have more of a =
right
angle to the trajectory  and  appears to be about double the =
angle
from the ground than the third which is taken downrange . Even if the =
first 2
shots were taken almost directly under the objects head, it most likely =
is no
more than 6 km in altitude.<o:p></o:p>

<o:p> </o:p>

One thing that could be done to =
either <st1:PersonName>support</st1:PersonName> or
reject the aircraft contrail theory would be to get the air traffic logs =
for
that area and see what was flying west, =
between those
2 towns at the time the pictures were =
taken.<o:p></o:p>

<o:p> </o:p>

Also, if it was a bolide,
then some IR satellite had to have got a signature from =
this.<o:p></o:p>

<o:p> </o:p>

This is an incredibly interesting =
process,
hope we get some more real data.<o:p></o:p>

<o:p> </o:p>

CharlyV</f=
ont><o:p></o:p>

-----Original =
Message----- 
From: =
meteorite-list-admin_at_meteoritecentral.com
[mailto:meteorite-list-admin_at_meteoritecentral.com] On Behalf Of GeoZay_at_aol.com 
Sent: =
<st1:date
Month=3D"10" Day=3D"4" Year=3D"2003">Saturday, October 04, =
2003</st1:date> <st1:time
Hour=3D"21" Minute=3D"20">9:20 PM</st1:time> 
To:
meteorite-list_at_meteoritecentral.com 
Subject: Re: =
[meteorite-list] <st1:country-region><st1:place>Wales</st1:place></st1:country-r=
egion> images

<o:p> </o:p>

In a message dated =
<st1:date
Month=3D"10" Day=3D"4" Year=3D"2003">10/4/2003</st1:date> =
<st1:time
Hour=3D"18" Minute=3D"0">6:00:17 PM</st1:time> Pacific Standard Time,
daistiho_at_hotmail.com writes: 
 
<![if !supportLineBreakNewLine]> 
<![endif]><o:p></o:p>

>>Would the =
photographers have
necessarily gone back to note if the train was 
"twisting", as bolide trails usually do?  If they had no
experience (as 
seems likely) with residual smoke trains from meteors, it might not have =
 
struck them as important to note or =
document.<<<o:p></o:p>

 
 
They wouldn't have to "go back" to note the train was =
twisting...it
surely would become obvious as the seconds ticked off. The process of =
train
twisting is quite dynamic. They wouldn't have had to note this as being
important to note or document...it would have seem strange and odd and =
couldn't
help but be noted. If a fireball train was twisting like a writhing =
snake, it
would stick in my mind to note whether someone wanted me to or not. 
George Zay 
 
<![if !supportLineBreakNewLine]> 
<![endif]><o:p></o:p>

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Received on Sun 05 Oct 2003 02:25:11 AM PDT

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