[meteorite-list] Wales images

From: Charles R. Viau <cviau_at_meteoritecentral.com>
Date: Thu Apr 22 10:28:22 2004
Message-ID: <005801c38b09$7248b540$1800a8c0_at_chupa>

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What looks bad for the object being an aircraft:
 
I have 2k hours in Lockheed P2/P3 ASW aircraft flight time under my belt
from service 1969 to 1977, and I have seen all types of contrails,
flying under, over, around and even through them. Never, have I seen one
like this. This, of course does not mean that it is not one, however at
the original picture taker's location, the trail is just too thick and
dense. Aircraft contrails just don't look like that. If anything , it
looks more like what you would expect out of a rocket plume.. or, a real
bolide smoke trail.
 
Also, about sunlight: Look at a close-up of the trail behind the
illuminated head (again, in the first shot). Aircraft contrails are
really much thinner in water vapor volume than most clouds, so it
seems that the sun should have shown completely through this tail, and
not have been blocked from illuminating the whole tail if it was
produced by an aircraft and sunlight.
Instead, you see this illumination above, below and intermixed in the
tail. That looks like a hot combusting gas. Additionally, the after
shot, from the same location which was said to have been taken minute
later shows the terminal point of this tail expanded almost double in
size and ends very abruptly. Aircraft contrails that start and end over
the course of flight seem to look like fade in's and out's, (like an
oscilloscope view of a waveform) never just a sudden stop, with a giant
plume at the end. The after shot also shows a marked down angle twist
between the head and tail, which may indeed support a twisting of the
tail through wind levels at altitude. The bright illuminated plume could
be caused by the sun, but at the exact terminal point? Possible but
doubtful, and with that intensity?, even more doubtful.
 
What looks bad for the object being a bolide:
 
The third backup shot, taken 16km or so away looks more like an aircraft
contrail, but it is downrange , making it very difficult to tell what
made it. This object cannot be at a very high altitude. The first 2
shots were taken with a zoom, the third, from a wide field cellphone
lens. The first 2 shots have more of a right angle to the trajectory
and appears to be about double the angle from the ground than the third
which is taken downrange . Even if the first 2 shots were taken almost
directly under the objects head, it most likely is no more than 6 km in
altitude.
 
One thing that could be done to either support or reject the aircraft
contrail theory would be to get the air traffic logs for that area and
see what was flying west, between those 2 towns at the time the pictures
were taken.
 
Also, if it was a bolide, then some IR satellite had to have got a
signature from this.
 
This is an incredibly interesting process, hope we get some more real
data.
 
CharlyV
-----Original Message-----
From: meteorite-list-admin_at_meteoritecentral.com
[mailto:meteorite-list-admin_at_meteoritecentral.com] On Behalf Of
GeoZay_at_aol.com
Sent: Saturday, October 04, 2003 9:20 PM
To: meteorite-list_at_meteoritecentral.com
Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Wales images
 
In a message dated 10/4/2003 6:00:17 PM Pacific Standard Time,
daistiho_at_hotmail.com writes:



>>Would the photographers have necessarily gone back to note if the
train was
"twisting", as bolide trails usually do? If they had no experience (as
seems likely) with residual smoke trains from meteors, it might not have

struck them as important to note or document.<<


They wouldn't have to "go back" to note the train was twisting...it
surely would become obvious as the seconds ticked off. The process of
train twisting is quite dynamic. They wouldn't have had to note this as
being important to note or document...it would have seem strange and odd
and couldn't help but be noted. If a fireball train was twisting like a
writhing snake, it would stick in my mind to note whether someone wanted
me to or not.
George Zay




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<body lang=3DEN-US link=3Dblue vlink=3Dpurple =
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<div class=3DSection1>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial =
FAMILY=3DSANSSERIF><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p>=
</span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>What looks bad for the object being =
an <span
class=3DGramE>aircraft:</span><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>I have 2k hours in Lockheed P2/P3 =
ASW
aircraft flight time under my belt from service 1969 to 1977, and I have =
seen
all types of contrails, flying under, over, around and even through =
them.
Never, have I seen one like this. <span
style=3D'mso-spacerun:yes'>&nbsp;</span>This, of course does not mean =
that it is
not one, however at the original picture taker&#8217;s location, the =
trail is
just too thick and dense. Aircraft contrails just don&#8217;t look like =
that.
If <span class=3DGramE>anything ,</span> it looks more like what you =
would expect
out of a rocket plume.. <span class=3DGramE>or</span>, a real <span =
class=3DSpellE>bolide</span>
smoke trail. <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Also, about sunlight: <span
style=3D'mso-spacerun:yes'>&nbsp;</span>Look at a close-up of the trail =
behind
the illuminated head (again, in the first shot). Aircraft contrails are =
really
much thinner in water vapor volume <span class=3DGramE>than <span
style=3D'mso-spacerun:yes'>&nbsp;</span>most</span> clouds,<span
style=3D'mso-spacerun:yes'>&nbsp; </span>so it seems that the sun should
have<span style=3D'mso-spacerun:yes'>&nbsp; </span>shown completely =
through this
tail,<span style=3D'mso-spacerun:yes'>&nbsp; </span>and not have been =
blocked
from illuminating the whole tail if it was produced by an aircraft and =
sunlight.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Instead, you see this illumination =
above,
below and intermixed in the tail. That looks like a hot combusting gas. =
Additionally,
the after shot, from the same location which was said to have been taken =
minute
later shows the terminal point of this tail expanded almost double in =
size and
ends very abruptly. <span =
style=3D'mso-spacerun:yes'>&nbsp;</span>Aircraft
contrails that start and end over the course of flight seem to look like =
fade <span
class=3DSpellE>in&#8217;s</span> and out&#8217;s, (like an oscilloscope =
view of a
waveform) never just a sudden stop, with a giant plume at the end. <span
style=3D'mso-spacerun:yes'>&nbsp;</span>The after shot also shows a =
marked down
angle twist between the head and tail, which may indeed =
</span></font><st1:PersonName><font
 size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
 color:navy'>support</span></font></st1:PersonName><font size=3D2 =
color=3Dnavy
face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'> a
twisting of the tail through wind levels at altitude. The bright =
illuminated
plume could be caused by the sun, but at the exact terminal point? <span
style=3D'mso-spacerun:yes'>&nbsp;</span>Possible but doubtful, and with =
that
intensity<span class=3DGramE>?,</span> even more =
doubtful.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>What looks bad for the object being =
<span
class=3DGramE>a <span style=3D'mso-spacerun:yes'>&nbsp;</span><span =
class=3DSpellE>bolide</span></span>:<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>The third backup shot, taken 16km =
or so
away looks more like an aircraft contrail, but it is <span =
class=3DGramE>downrange
,</span> making it very difficult to tell what made it. <span
style=3D'mso-spacerun:yes'>&nbsp;</span>This object cannot be at a very =
high
altitude. The first 2 shots were taken with a zoom, the third, from a =
wide
field <span class=3DSpellE>cellphone</span> lens. <span
style=3D'mso-spacerun:yes'>&nbsp;</span>The first 2 shots have more of a =
right
angle to the <span class=3DGramE>trajectory <span
style=3D'mso-spacerun:yes'>&nbsp;</span>and</span><span
style=3D'mso-spacerun:yes'>&nbsp; </span>appears to be about double the =
angle
from the ground than the third which is taken downrange . Even if the =
first 2
shots were taken almost directly under the objects head, it most likely =
is no
more than 6 km in altitude.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>One thing that could be done to =
either </span></font><st1:PersonName><font
 size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
 color:navy'>support</span></font></st1:PersonName><font size=3D2 =
color=3Dnavy
face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'> or
reject the aircraft contrail theory would be to get the air traffic logs =
for
that area and see what was flying <span class=3DGramE>west,</span> =
between those
2 towns at the time the pictures were =
taken.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Also, if it was a <span =
class=3DSpellE>bolide</span>,
then some IR satellite had to have got a signature from =
this.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>This is an incredibly interesting =
process,
hope we get some more real data.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span class=3DSpellE><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy =
face=3DArial><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>CharlyV</span></f=
ont></span><font
size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:navy'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D2 =
face=3DTahoma><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'>-----Original =
Message-----<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>From:</span></b> =
meteorite-list-admin_at_meteoritecentral.com
[mailto:meteorite-list-admin_at_meteoritecentral.com] <b><span =
style=3D'font-weight:
bold'>On Behalf Of </span></b>GeoZay_at_aol.com<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> =
</span></font><st1:date
Month=3D"10" Day=3D"4" Year=3D"2003"><font size=3D2 face=3DTahoma><span =
style=3D'font-size:
 10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'>Saturday, October 04, =
2003</span></font></st1:date><font
size=3D2 face=3DTahoma><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'> </span></font><st1:time
Hour=3D"21" Minute=3D"20"><font size=3D2 face=3DTahoma><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
 font-family:Tahoma'>9:20 PM</span></font></st1:time><font size=3D2 =
face=3DTahoma><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'><br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b>
meteorite-list_at_meteoritecentral.com<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: =
[meteorite-list] </span></font><st1:country-region><st1:place><span
  class=3DGramE><font size=3D2 face=3DTahoma><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
  =
font-family:Tahoma'>Wales</span></font></span></st1:place></st1:country-r=
egion><font
size=3D2 face=3DTahoma><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'> images</span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3 =
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D2 =
face=3DArial><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>In a message dated =
</span></font><st1:date
Month=3D"10" Day=3D"4" Year=3D"2003"><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
 10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>10/4/2003</span></font></st1:date><font =
size=3D2
face=3DArial><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'> =
</span></font><st1:time
Hour=3D"18" Minute=3D"0"><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
 font-family:Arial'>6:00:17 PM</span></font></st1:time><font size=3D2 =
face=3DArial><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'> Pacific Standard Time,
daistiho_at_hotmail.com writes:<br>
<br style=3D'mso-special-character:line-break'>
<![if !supportLineBreakNewLine]><br =
style=3D'mso-special-character:line-break'>
<![endif]><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D2 =
face=3DArial><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>&gt;&gt;Would the =
photographers have
necessarily gone back to note if the train was <br>
&quot;twisting&quot;, as bolide trails usually do?&nbsp; If they had no
experience (as <br>
seems likely) with residual smoke trains from meteors, it might not have =
<br>
struck them as important to note or =
document.&lt;&lt;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:
12.0pt;margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D2 color=3Dblack face=3DArial =
FAMILY=3DSANSSERIF><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black;background:white'=
><br>
<br>
They wouldn't have to &quot;go back&quot; to note the train was =
twisting...it
surely would become obvious as the seconds ticked off. The process of =
train
twisting is quite dynamic. They wouldn't have had to note this as being
important to note or document...it would have seem strange and odd and =
couldn't
help but be noted. If a fireball train was twisting like a writhing =
snake, it
would stick in my mind to note whether someone wanted me to or not. <br>
George Zay <br>
<br style=3D'mso-special-character:line-break'>
<![if !supportLineBreakNewLine]><br =
style=3D'mso-special-character:line-break'>
<![endif]></span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

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Received on Sun 05 Oct 2003 02:25:11 AM PDT


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