[meteorite-list] Meteor crater?
From: Steve Schoner <steve_schoner_at_meteoritecentral.com>
Date: Thu Apr 22 10:27:53 2004 Message-ID: <20031126152132.69503.qmail_at_web12702.mail.yahoo.com> --0-927626040-1069860092=:67927 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Roman, Forget searching Meteor Crater... even out to distances of more than 7 miles... Bar-T-Bar (aka Meteor Crater Enterprises) controls all of the land even at that distance. And if you do expect to be harassed, by 1) Being accosted by their "security guards" sometimes dressed like State Park Rangers. (They did this to me in 1979 on State Lands several miles away from the Crater in broad daylight. They wanted to "confiscate" my detector and when they went to get a rifle from their truck to make the point I produced my pistol holster with the gun holstered, and said "Don't go there. You made your point, and you won't get my detector at gunpoint. I am leaving. But when I get to Flagstaff, I will file a police report of this incident... Which I did.) 2) All of the above, and now expect to be thrown into. A) The Winslow Jail (a very bad place) B) The Flagstaff Jail ( a better place). And expect to spend a day or two there before a hearing before a judge. 3) Charges will be filed against you for "criminal trespass" and "meteorite poaching" on State and Private lands. 4) A trial date will be set and you will be released, sans your detector and any meteorites you might have found, and you will have to hire a lawyer and pay him good money to defend yourself.. 5) A court case will be initiated where you will have to appear at least once or several times. 6) And after you have expended a considerable amount of money, and time, Bar-T-Bar (aka Meteor Crater Enterprises) and or the AZ State Land Department will drop the charges after they have made the point. (I know of no case that they have prosecuted to the finish... They drop their cases every time.) 7) Before you consider going through all of the above, you might just go to Stewarts outside of Holbrook and look at and buy some of their very large Canyon Diablo's . They range from grams to 50 lbs. Beautiful specimens, all fresh dug. (I wonder who it is that has "Meteor Crater" permission to market them through Stewarts, so as to avoid the first 6 things that I outlined above. It is a question that I have had for quite some time. Stewarts, won't say.) Steve Schoner/ams P.S. You are right about the science at Meteor Crater. With the exception of Dr. Shoemaker's work in the late 1950's and that of Dr. Roddy... NO SIGNIFICANT SCIENCE HAS BEEN DONE OUT THERE. Why? Because according to the managers..."All the science that needs to have been done has already been done." Period. (There are two well known meteorite dealers here on MetList that can elucidate on their experiences out there on those public lands. Find out the what happened to them, and the legal harassing that they went through. It is an eye opener. I could provide their names off list and you can e-mail them directly) Sorry for "ranting" but the Meteor Crater situation does tick me off. Steve Schoner/ams http://www.geocities.com/american_meteorite_survey Roman Nakonechny <uraninut239__at_hotmail.com> wrote: Thanks Ron. I never read any books on Meteor Crater, Az. with any sort of useful, scientifically oriented to meteoritics type information. It's always, Barringer bought it, tried drilling for the mother load of Nickek-Iron, failed, it's 30-50,000yrs. old stuff and that's it. Any ideas where i can get more information like your post . You know Tom Knudson is the one who really wants to go there and, well, give it a shot at finding a chunk of Canyon Diablo, poking its nose out of the dusty desert terrain to take home . Hey, I bought a 6pound Canyon Diablo individual 10 yrs. ago from Bob Haag . It has lots of character- meaning it's not a 6lb. round boring slug of iron. If you bought it to slice it up, it does'nt matter what the shape is, but for my first meteorite at $80.00lb. back then and going for $500.00lb. now with some dealers, it was a great investment that promisses to skyrocket in the near future. Bob told me it would- he's a good man. Email Tom if you get any more info.. Thanks Again and Good Night (IMCA #0583- Roman N.) >From: "Ron Hartman" >To: "Roman Nakonechny" >Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Meteor crater? >Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2003 14:15:38 -0800 > >Hello Roman, > >I don't see any threads re: this post, re: angle of impact. It has been >well documented that objects can and do and will form circular explosion >craters when impacting at oblique angles. Case in point, most of the lunar >craters are circular. The Meteorite Crater is best described as a square >with rounded corners. This is a result of the fracturing at stress point >in >the strata, which are essentially sedimentary: limestone and sandstone, >which were "rolled back" as one would open a sardine can. Hope this info. >is of help. Not trying to be authoritative here. > >The Meteor Crater ownership and problems re: hunting is a long and evolving >story. I could tell you volumes (and perhaps will someday when we meet.) > >Ron Hartman > > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Roman Nakonechny" >To: ; >Sent: Sunday, November 23, 2003 10:14 PM >Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Meteor crater? > > > > Yo Tom, > > I was going to go out there myself a couple of years back and >one > > of the two top meteorite dealers in the world , I forget which, told me >that > > he went out there at night and got nabbed by security personnelin a SUV >who > > have sophisticated equipment to listen for the tell-tale signature > > frequencies of operating metal detectors. They zeroed in on his "sorry > > -lookin" asspergum with homing directional antennae- like when >biologists > > are homing for tagged and trasmitting endangered animals- but the > > electronics are tuned to metal detector transmit signals. They have >night > > vision scopes, the works. It's not like it used to be , even 5yrs. ago. >Just > > walking around in the blue sky Arizona daylight and looking for wind > > -erosion unearthed meteorites- the SECURITY people , if they spot you, >will > > check your backpack, especially if you have a shovel the size of a >backhoe > > and are trying to lie your way out of it. The OFF-LIMITS PERIMETER is 6 >mls. > > around Meteor Crater . Hell, you could find a non- Canyon Diablo Stone > > Meteorite and they will confiscate it, and your backhoe, and your >$800.00 > > Whites metal detector- and you'll spend a night in the nearby jail. >This > > particular dealer went home unnerved at the security attack on him and >the > > jail ing. But at night- they know what your there for man, and it aint >to > > poach tarantulas or antellope. As far as impact angle of entry, and it's >my > > opinion, a beautiful and symmetrical circle- of -a -crater and the near > > deposition of after- > > impact iron tells me it was a direct hit - 90*degrees straight up from > > horizontal ground. I'm curious too about the angle of entry and we have > > people on our List who might be more informed about the impact dynamics >at > > Meteor Crater . > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~* Good Luck If You Go Tom. > > Roman ( IMCA #0583) > > > > >From: "Tom aka James Knudson" > > >To: > > >Subject: [meteorite-list] Meteor crater? > > >Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2003 13:09:30 -0700 > > > > > >Hello List, Does anyone on the list know much about the impact of the > > >Canyon Diablo meteorite? I would like to know the most current thoughts >on > > >entry angle and exact direction. Also when the meteor would have broken >up > > >and when pieces would have started falling off the main mass? Any help > > >would > > >be greatly appreciated. : ) I am trying to see if there is any place >legal > > >for hunting along it's flight path. > > > > > >Thanks, Tom > > >Peregrineflier <>< > > >Yea, that's right, > > >The proudest member of the IMCA # 6168 > > > > > > > > > > > >______________________________________________ > > >Meteorite-list mailing list > > >Meteorite-list_at_meteoritecentral.com > > >http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > Share holiday photos without swamping your Inbox. Get MSN Extra Storage > > now! http://join.msn.com/?PAGE=features/es > > > > > > ______________________________________________ > > Meteorite-list mailing list > > Meteorite-list_at_meteoritecentral.com > > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > _________________________________________________________________ Share holiday photos without swamping your Inbox. Get MSN Extra Storage now! http://join.msn.com/?PAGE=features/es ______________________________________________ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list_at_meteoritecentral.com http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Free Pop-Up Blocker - Get it now --0-927626040-1069860092=:67927 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii <DIV> <DIV>Roman,</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Forget searching Meteor Crater... even out to distances of more than 7 miles... Bar-T-Bar (aka Meteor Crater Enterprises) controls all of the land even at that distance.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And if you do expect to be harassed, by</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>1) Being accosted by their "security guards" sometimes dressed like State Park Rangers. (They did this to me in 1979 on State Lands several miles away from the Crater in broad daylight. They wanted to "confiscate" my detector and when they went to get a rifle from their truck to make the point I produced my pistol holster with the gun holstered, and said "Don't go there. You made your point, and you won't get my detector at gunpoint. I am leaving. But when I get to Flagstaff, I will file a police report of this incident... Which I did.)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>2) All of the above, and now expect to be thrown into. A) The Winslow Jail (a very bad place) B) The Flagstaff Jail ( a better place). And expect to spend a day or two there before a hearing before a judge.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>3) Charges will be filed against you for "criminal trespass" and "meteorite poaching" on State and Private lands.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>4) A trial date will be set and you will be released, sans your detector and any meteorites you might have found, and you will have to hire a lawyer and pay him good money to defend yourself..</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>5) A court case will be initiated where you will have to appear at least once or several times.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>6) And after you have expended a considerable amount of money, and time, Bar-T-Bar (aka Meteor Crater Enterprises) and or the AZ State Land Department will drop the charges after they have made the point. (I know of no case that they have prosecuted to the finish... They drop their cases every time.)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>7) Before you consider going through all of the above, you might just go to Stewarts outside of Holbrook and look at and buy some of their very large Canyon Diablo's . They range from grams to 50 lbs. Beautiful specimens, all fresh dug. (I wonder who it is that has "Meteor Crater" permission to market them through Stewarts, so as to avoid the first 6 things that I outlined above. It is a question that I have had for quite some time. Stewarts, won't say.)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Steve Schoner/ams</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>P.S. You are right about the science at Meteor Crater. With the exception of Dr. Shoemaker's work in the late 1950's and that of Dr. Roddy... NO SIGNIFICANT SCIENCE HAS BEEN DONE OUT THERE. Why? Because according to the managers..."All the science that needs to have been done has already been done."</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Period.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> <DIV>(There are two well known meteorite dealers here on MetList that can elucidate on their experiences out there on those public lands. Find out the what happened to them, and the legal harassing that they went through. It is an eye opener. I could provide their names off list and you can e-mail them directly)</DIV></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Sorry for "ranting" but the Meteor Crater situation does tick me off.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Steve Schoner/ams</DIV> <DIV><A href="http://www.geocities.com/american_meteorite_survey">http://www.geocities.com/american_meteorite_survey</A></DIV> <DIV><BR><BR><B><I>Roman Nakonechny <uraninut239__at_hotmail.com></I></B> wrote:</DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE class=replbq style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #1010ff 2px solid">Thanks Ron. I never read any books on Meteor Crater, Az. with any sort of <BR>useful, scientifically oriented to meteoritics type information. It's <BR>always, Barringer bought it, tried drilling for the mother load of <BR>Nickek-Iron, failed, it's 30-50,000yrs. old stuff and that's it. Any ideas <BR>where i can get more information like your post . You know Tom Knudson is <BR>the one who really wants to go there and, well, give it a shot at finding a <BR>chunk of Canyon Diablo, poking its nose out of the dusty desert terrain to <BR>take home . Hey, I bought a 6pound Canyon Diablo individual 10 yrs. ago <BR>from Bob Haag . It has lots of character- meaning it's not a 6lb. round <BR>boring slug of iron. If you bought it to slice it up, it does'nt matter <BR>what the shape is, but for my first meteorite at $80.00lb. back then and <BR>going for $500.00lb. now with some dealers, it was a great investment that <BR>promisses to skyrocket in the near future. Bob told me it would- he's a good <BR>man. Email Tom if you get any more info.. Thanks Again and Good Night<BR>(IMCA #0583- Roman N.)<BR>>From: "Ron Hartman" <RNHARTMA_at_MTSAC.EDU><BR>>To: "Roman Nakonechny" <URANINUT239_@HOTMAIL.COM><BR>>Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Meteor crater?<BR>>Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2003 14:15:38 -0800<BR>><BR>>Hello Roman,<BR>><BR>>I don't see any threads re: this post, re: angle of impact. It has been<BR>>well documented that objects can and do and will form circular explosion<BR>>craters when impacting at oblique angles. Case in point, most of the lunar<BR>>craters are circular. The Meteorite Crater is best described as a square<BR>>with rounded corners. This is a result of the fracturing at stress point <BR>>in<BR>>the strata, which are essentially sedimentary: limestone and sandstone,<BR>>which were "rolled back" as one would open a sardine can. Hope this info.<BR>>is of help. Not trying to be authoritative here.<BR>><BR>>The Meteor Crater ownership and problems re: hunting is a long and evolving<BR>>story. I could tell you volumes (and perhaps will someday when we meet.)<BR>><BR>>Ron Hartman<BR>><BR>><BR>>----- Original Message -----<BR>>From: "Roman Nakonechny" <URANINUT239__at_HOTMAIL.COM><BR>>To: <KNUDSON911@FRONTIERNET.NET>; <METEORITE-LIST@METEORITECENTRAL.COM><BR>>Sent: Sunday, November 23, 2003 10:14 PM<BR>>Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Meteor crater?<BR>><BR>><BR>> > Yo Tom,<BR>> > I was going to go out there myself a couple of years back and <BR>>one<BR>> > of the two top meteorite dealers in the world , I forget which, told me<BR>>that<BR>> > he went out there at night and got nabbed by security personnelin a SUV<BR>>who<BR>> > have sophisticated equipment to listen for the tell-tale signature<BR>> > frequencies of operating metal detectors. They zeroed in on his "sorry<BR>> > -lookin" asspergum with homing directional antennae- like when <BR>>biologists<BR>> > are homing for tagged and trasmitting endangered animals- but the<BR>> > electronics are tuned to metal detector transmit signals. They have <BR>>night<BR>> > vision scopes, the works. It's not like it used to be , even 5yrs. ago.<BR>>Just<BR>> > walking around in the blue sky Arizona daylight and looking for wind<BR>> > -erosion unearthed meteorites- the SECURITY people , if they spot you,<BR>>will<BR>> > check your backpack, especially if you have a shovel the size of a <BR>>backhoe<BR>> > and are trying to lie your way out of it. The OFF-LIMITS PERIMETER is 6<BR>>mls.<BR>> > around Meteor Crater . Hell, you could find a non- Canyon Diablo Stone<BR>> > Meteorite and they will confiscate it, and your backhoe, and your <BR>>$800.00<BR>> > Whites metal detector- and you'll spend a night in the nearby jail. <BR>>This<BR>> > particular dealer went home unnerved at the security attack on him and <BR>>the<BR>> > jail ing. But at night- they know what your there for man, and it aint <BR>>to<BR>> > poach tarantulas or antellope. As far as impact angle of entry, and it's<BR>>my<BR>> > opinion, a beautiful and symmetrical circle- of -a -crater and the near<BR>> > deposition of after-<BR>> > impact iron tells me it was a direct hit - 90*degrees straight up from<BR>> > horizontal ground. I'm curious too about the angle of entry and we have<BR>> > people on our List who might be more informed about the impact dynamics <BR>>at<BR>> > Meteor Crater .<BR>> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~* Good Luck If You Go Tom.<BR>> > Roman ( IMCA #0583)<BR>> ><BR>> > >From: "Tom aka James Knudson" <KNUDSON911_at_FRONTIERNET.NET><BR>> > >To: <METEORITE-LIST_at_METEORITECENTRAL.COM><BR>> > >Subject: [meteorite-list] Meteor crater?<BR>> > >Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2003 13:09:30 -0700<BR>> > ><BR>> > >Hello List, Does anyone on the list know much about the impact of the<BR>> > >Canyon Diablo meteorite? I would like to know the most current thoughts<BR>>on<BR>> > >entry angle and exact direction. Also when the meteor would have broken<BR>>up<BR>> > >and when pieces would have started falling off the main mass? Any help<BR>> > >would<BR>> > >be greatly appreciated. : ) I am trying to see if there is any place<BR>>legal<BR>> > >for hunting along it's flight path.<BR>> > ><BR>> > >Thanks, Tom<BR>> > >Peregrineflier <><<BR>> > >Yea, that's right,<BR>> > >The proudest member of the IMCA # 6168<BR>> > ><BR>> > ><BR>> > ><BR>> > >______________________________________________<BR>> > >Meteorite-list mailing list<BR>> > >Meteorite-list_at_meteoritecentral.com<BR>> > >http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list<BR>> ><BR>> > _________________________________________________________________<BR>> > Share holiday photos without swamping your Inbox. Get MSN Extra Storage<BR>> > now! http://join.msn.com/?PAGE=features/es<BR>> ><BR>> ><BR>> > ______________________________________________<BR>> > Meteorite-list mailing list<BR>> > Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com<BR>> > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list<BR>><BR><BR>_________________________________________________________________<BR>Share holiday photos without swamping your Inbox. Get MSN Extra Storage <BR>now! http://join.msn.com/?PAGE=features/es<BR><BR><BR>______________________________________________<BR>Meteorite-list mailing list<BR>Meteorite-list_at_meteoritecentral.com<BR>http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list</BLOCKQUOTE></DIV><p><hr SIZE=1> Do you Yahoo!?<br> <a href="http://us.rd.yahoo.com/slv/mailtag/*http://companion.yahoo.com/">Free Pop-Up Blocker - Get it now</a> --0-927626040-1069860092=:67927-- Received on Wed 26 Nov 2003 10:21:32 AM PST |
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