[meteorite-list] Re: Barringer Meteor $$$$

From: Tom aka James Knudson <knudson911_at_meteoritecentral.com>
Date: Thu Apr 22 10:25:37 2004
Message-ID: <005501c3163e$d05c5000$1bc343d8_at_malcolm>

Hello Steve and list, I have a paper signed by an AZ. BLM big-wig that
states a person can collect 250 pounds a year of meteorites from BLM land
and can be traded, given away or kept. You just can not sale any or make a
profit in any way.

Thanks, Tom
The proudest member of the IMCA 6168
----- Original Message -----
From: Steve Schoner <steve_schoner_at_yahoo.com>
To: Bob Martino <martino.6_at_osu.edu>; <meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com>
Sent: Friday, May 09, 2003 1:19 AM
Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Re: Barringer Meteor $$$$


> Bob,
>
> No need to apologize, I respect your opinion, and I
> know that I can be stubborn on issues that I believe
> to be true. And ost of what you say is true. The
> Park Service is in dismal straits, and it seems our
> illustrious government is inclined to keep it that
> way. I worked for the NPS for ten years from 1988 to
> 1998, so I can relate to what you are saying.
>
> But that does not take away the argument that the 1872
> Mining Act needs to be repealed or amended so that
> current mining claims can be re-examined. There has
> been some movement over the years to do that, but
> mining interests intervene each and every time it
> comes up.
>
> I still believe strongly that Meteor Crater should not
> be leased under the provisions of the Mining Act. I
> have always had this opinion.
>
> I remember the days when I went there when it was a
> tourist trap. It still is a tourist trap. They were
> in the process of re-modeling the museum when I was
> last there. And the tour guide had some great
> historical stories relating to the crater, but his
> understanding of the geology of the site was
> deficient. He said that the meteor was under the
> southern rim, and this, Dr. Shoemaker, and Dr. Moulton
> proved wrong. And Nininger found the sphereoids to
> prove it... that the meteorite was vaporized on
> impact. There is no massive meteorite under the
> southern rim of the crater.
>
> With regards to interpretation of meteorites, one
> thing has bothered me for years, and this is just one
> of many things that bothered me. You might want to
> see if they still have a slice of the Richardton
> Meteorite that fell in 1918 confused with a slice of
> weathered Morland Meteorite in their meteorite display
> case. I have told the manager about this display
> several times over several years and even e-mailed the
> manager about it. Still, the last time I saw it, it
> was labeled wrong, with the labels on the wrong
> meteorites.
>
> Guess in the manager's estimation, I don't know what I
> am talking about.
>
> All of this aside, I strongly disagree with you
> regarding Dr. Nininger's collection of Canyon Diablo
> meteorites. In the days that he was there he searched
> for meteorites IN BROAD DAYLIGHT for the reason that
> the Arizona State Land Department, and maybe even
> Meteor Crater managers permitted him to do so. And
> they had not denied him permission to take what he
> found on state lands outside of the crater property.
> What "poacher" would steal in broad daylight right
> under the noses of State land, and private managers?
> And in 1939 he even used a truck with huge
> electromagnets mounted on the back to rake the
> northern rim soils for smaller meteorites IN BROAD
> DAYLIGHT. And the Barringer's and crater managers knew
> that he was there after permission to do so was
> granted.
>
> They knew for years that Dr. Nininger was there
> collecting meteorites, and with permission to do so he
> continued his research at the museum now ruined near
> the current I-40, selling those meteorites to an
> interested public. During that time he continued to
> make contributions in the field meteor crater science.
>
> So, now long after he is gone, the current managers
> say that he ACTUALLY STOLE the meteorites?
>
> Dr. Nininger never told me that he stole meteorites
> from Meteor Crater, or from the State lands
> surrounding the crater. They were, according to what
> he related to me, obtained with permits and legally.
>
> Certainly un-like the current "poachers" that scamper
> around the crater AT NIGHT?
>
> Humm...
>
> I would rather believe the story of a man that spent
> years searching in daylight, than the stories of those
> who never met him and know nothing of the situation as
> it actually happened..
>
> As for my project. Yes, I am somewhat bitter about it.
> I asked Nininger how I would start to go about it. He
> related to me that first I would have to contact the
> AZ Bureau of Land Management for a permit to search on
> State lands. That is what he did over the years that
> he searched the crater. But then he said, I hope that
> you have luck at it, for there is some kind of special
> arrangement between the folks at Meteor Crater and
> BLM.
>
> He was right.
>
> What a tremendous waste of time and effort, spanning
> years of my life when I was much healthier and younger
> to do the work. You have no idea the things I had to
> agree to even start the project. And yes I am a
> "dealer" of meteorites. (All dealers to the MCE are
> "poachers" by the way) Try to get over that bias in
> their eyes. Even if you bend over backwards to meet
> their conditions to be honest, in their viewpoint a
> meteorite dealer is still a thief. I have much more
> to say on this, but it is much too involved to post
> here.
>
> And the totality of this issue is really more
> complicated than just the Mining Act of 1872, as it
> pertains to Meteor Crater proper. It is also the fact
> that Arizona State lands are being leased to them
> (Meteor Crater Enterprises and Bar-T-Bar Ranch) for
> cattle grazing. The mineral rights are not specified,
> and at least the last time I checked there was no
> provision in the law that all mineral rights go under
> that claim. It certainly was not that way when Dr.
> Nininger was searching State lands around the crater.
> All one had to do was put in an application and fee
> for a prospector's permit to search State lands even
> if they were being grazed under a grazing permit. But
> currently, in the case of Meteor Crater, these permits
> are not granted, unless one meets impossible
> conditions put down by the entities or persons leasing
> the lands for grazing.
>
> Fifteen years ago, I was trying to get my projct
> going, meeting all of the demands for inspections and
> security measures to ensure that I did not "poach" any
> meteorites; every piece I found would go to UCLA, and
> or ASU. During this time I spoke to a land manager in
> Phoenix, I believe it was Hal Suzie. I mentioned that
> what would happen if one found meteorites in places
> throughout Arizona other than meteor crater, and they
> did not have the required "meteorite permit." His
> response was immediate and abrupt. "All meteorite
> finds made on Arizona BLM lands are the property of
> the State of Arizona, and must be turned over."
>
> Holbrook, or Gold Basin finds on BLM land on AZBLM
> lands?
>
> Better have your permits. ;->
>
> In all of what I experienced, Arizona is a complicated
> state with strange land policy.
>
> No doubt about that.
>
> It remains a mystery to me. And I have lived here for
> 33 years.
>
> And with a change of focus, I kept my sights on a much
> coveted meteorite prize at Glorieta Mt; MM, and turned
> all the effort that I would have otherwise spent at
> the Arizona's Meteor Crater with no gain at all, to
> achieving something worth while.
>
> Steve Schoner.
> http://www.geocities.com/meteorite_identification
>
> P. S.
>
> This was extremely hard, and it took a long time for
> me to bring these details up into my mind and then
> into words as I am, even after four months of recovery
> from encephalitis still somewhat out of it.
>
>
> --- Bob Martino <martino.6_at_osu.edu> wrote:
> > All,
> >
> > With apologies to the eloquent Mr. Schoner, I must
> > present a dissenting (or
> > at least balancing) opinion.
> >
> > With regard to the Mining Act under which the
> > Barringer family obtained the
> > crater, it was in fact legal and in fact proper. The
> > mining act only says
> > that you must _try_ to extract minerals from the
> > land for a specific time
> > period. After that, the land becomes yours. Daniel
> > Barringer did, by God,
> > try his damndest to extract minerals. He actually
> > sunk most of his fortune
> > into it, eventually going broke. But it was mined
> > for the proper amount of
> > time under the law and so became his. You might make
> > the case that the law
> > is bad and allows public property to pass into
> > private hands without just
> > compensation to the government (and I might agree
> > with you). Even so, it is
> > the law of the land and the letter as well as spirit
> > of that law was met by
> > Mr. Barringer. As a point of fact, almost anyone
> > living out west does so on
> > land that used to be owned by the government but was
> > essentially _given_
> > away to the first settlers and homesteaders.
> >
> > I think that (at this time at least) making the
> > crater a National Park or
> > National Monument would be a mistake.
> >
> > I've visited the crater twice now and each time I've
> > been impressed with the
> > great job the company is doing running the whole
> > operation. On my first
> > visit I expected a typical tourist trap. Stupid
> > plastic "Indian tomahawks"
> > and other inane items in the gift shop, for example.
> > While there is a little
> > of this, most of what they sell is good,
> > interesting, and even educational.
> > If you tell them you're a teacher they even will
> > mail to you a package of
> > information, books, and pictures. What tourist trap
> > does that? Also, the
> > tours were not lame and cheezy affairs given by a
> > bored guide with a poor
> > attitude and worse diction. Both times my guide for
> > the rim walk was quite
> > knowledgeable and interesting. At the end of my
> > first tour I told the guide
> > I worked at an observatory. He took out of his
> > pocket the magnet that he'd
> > drug through an ant hill during the tour. He picked
> > off a few dozen
> > authentic ant-mined meteorite specimens and gave
> > them to me in a plastic
> > wrapper from a cigarette pack. That was so cool.
> > They also have a short
> > movie about the crater which plays every 20 minutes
> > or so and it's very well
> > done also. High production values do not come cheap.
> > On my second visit I
> > found that they'd re-done the entire exhibit hall
> > with cool interactive
> > displays and hands-on activities. This sort of very
> > professional exhibit
> > development also does not come cheap either. Trust
> > me. I've done a lot of
> > exhibit creation on a tiny budget and I know how
> > that looks.
> >
> > For more than a decade the budget for the National
> > Park Service has been cut
> > every year while the number of parks and monuments
> > has grown. Add in
> > inflation and you quickly see why the NPS has a
> > backlog of almost a quarter
> > of a billion dollars in desperately needed repairs
> > and infrastructure
> > improvements that simply cannot be paid for. If the
> > NPS took over Meteor
> > Crater then in a few years the beautiful building
> > would begin to fall apart
> > and even more poaching would occur due to lack of
> > staffing.
> >
> > Indeed, the Barringer family _tried_ to return the
> > land to the government!
> > When the Federal Government said, "No thanks" they
> > tried to give it to the
> > State of Arizona. Arizona also declined. Everyone
> > saw it as a worthless
> > white-elephant-like piece of God-forsaken desert.
> > Now that Meteor Crater
> > Enterprises has made it into something worth having,
> > we want to take it away
> > from them?
> >
> > So you say the admission fee is too high? Why? To me
> > it seems in line with
> > other tourist attractions around the country. So
> > what if you can enter Grand
> > Canyon for $20 a car load? You don't actually
> > believe that the park can
> > cover _all_ of its costs at that admission price, do
> > you? Meteor Crater
> > doesn't receive any public money like the parks do.
> > It's for-profit. Grand
> > Canyon is non-profit. There are different economics
> > at play here. Meteor
> > Crater cannot run on deficit spending. And it isn't
> > wrong for them to want
> > to make a profit. Let me say that again. It is not
> > wrong for a private
> > for-profit company to make a profit from the use of
> > its assets. That's
> > Capitalism at work, isn't it?
> >
> > OK, so MCE doesn't like the late Dr. Nininger.
> > Actually, they have good
> > reason. He did indeed take meteorites off their
> > private property and sell
> > them. That's stealing. Whatever else the Dr. did,
> > whatever good he did,
> > whatever research he accomplished, he did steal
> > meteorites from the
> > Barringer family. Answer me this everyone: If you
> > owned a large piece of
> > land that had meteorites on it, what would you do
> > about people sneaking in
> > and taking them? Don't call it "poaching" (in
> > quotation marks as if to say
> > "It's not really poaching"). Call it stealing.
> > That's what it is. I know
> > that if God dropped a bunch of meteorite fragments
> > on land that I owned, I'd
> > guard them carefully and God help whoever tried to
> > take them! Now imagine
> > that you opened a tourist attraction on your
> > meteorite-covered property
> > (let's say an impact left a crater). Someone then
> > comes by and places a
> > competing attraction RIGHT NEXT DOOR where people
> > could look onto your land
> > and see your crater and then go into the gift shop
> > and buy meteorites stolen
> > from you. How would you feel? What would you do?
> >
> > Don't get me wrong. I'm not trying to bash Dr.
> > Nininger. He was a great man
> > who accomplished a lot of good science throughout a
> > hard life filled with
> > adversity. I'm just saying that the attitudes of the
> > managers of the crater
> > have good reasons behind them.
> >
> > Given the above, the attitude of Meteor Crater
> > Enterprises toward hard
> > research into the strewn field seems easier to
> > understand. The American
> > Meteorite Survey sells meteorites too. Having a
> > meteorite dealer search
> > around the crater collecting what he finds... I'm
> > not sure that I'd allow it
> > if I were in charge. The fact that Steve was a
> > friend of Dr. Nininger just
> > makes it worse.
> >
> > By the way, Steve, I have to call you on an
> > inconsistency. You criticized
> > MCE for allowing poachers to steal meteorites and
> > sell them at rock shops
> > along the highway while destroying strewn-field
> > data. But you also
> > criticized them for their attempts to stop the
> > poaching. I'm afraid you
> > can't have it both ways.
> >
> > And there is another entirely different reason why
> > the MCE people might not
> > like Steve's research. Lawsuits. What if Steve or
> > one of his assistants got
> > hurt? Meteor Crater was sued some time ago because a
> > _stupid_ woman wearing
> > sandals tried to hike around the crater rim even
> > though she was warned not
> > to. Of course she got hurt. Of course, it was the
> > fault of MCE for not
> > physically stopping her from doing something stupid.
> > MCE's insurance company
> > was going to refuse them any more coverage unless
> > they prevented _everyone_
> > from going outside while at the rim. Without
> > insurance coverage MCE wouldn't
> > be able to legally operate at all. MCE was finally
> > able
> === message truncated ===
>
>
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Received on Fri 09 May 2003 11:22:30 AM PDT