[meteorite-list] re: Bootids (Quadrantids) meteor shower and 2003 EH1

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From: MexicoDoug_at_aol.com <MexicoDoug_at_meteoritecentral.com>
Date: Thu Apr 22 10:18:03 2004
Message-ID: <bb.3a3a13c3.2d18a541_at_aol.com>

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Hello Marco, I'm am very pleased you caught and responded to my post.

Keeping in mind falls on Jan. 3, and their types:

Lost City H5 (Oklahoma, US 1970)
Warrenton CO3 (Missouri, US 1903)
St. Marks EH5 (South Africa 1877)
2003 EH1 and St. Mark's EH5 a coincidence:)

And from the JPL toolkit, I checked out 138 years (1873 to 2010) of 2003 EH1
position:

1877 at 1.02 AU from Sun and 0.53 AU from Earth
1903 at 3.64 AU from Sun and 4.54 AU from Earth
1970 at 1.97 AU from Sun and 2.15 AU from Earth

And, if I rank proximity of 2003 EH1 for the 138 years, the top nine are the
only ones under one AU from Earth, in date order. I find it interesting that
1877, the date of St. Marks EH5) is the second closest approach in the 138
years.

1877 0.52
1904 0.61
1915 0.85
1926 0.23
1937 0.67
1981 0.74
1992 0.56
2003 1.11
2004 3.77

For 138 years:
Average = 4.46
Sigma = 1.63
min. 0.23
max. 6.12

Rank in 138 years of closest approach to Earth (1926 was closest at 0.23 AU):

1877 (2)
1903 (55)
1970 (17)

So, please check out St. Marks EH5 as a footnote somewhere, and if you have
nothing to do, Lost City H5 -which Elton had some potentially good additional
comments...

I read your comments, and appreciate them, and also made a first pass at the
e-preprint for which you gave the link. I am still left wondering, though
after reading the following paragraphs from that paper, which conform that
material seems to be distributed within the evolving orbit evenly (no dust peak at
"parent body"), and that you are operating under theories of a too close for
comfort Jupiter encounter perhaps causing a very significant ejection of
material. If that is indeed the case, and if dust is well distributed which causes
the "common" Quadrantids we see on a well timed morning, when we pass that
perihelion point, what is to prevent a larger chunk here and there in the orbit
escaping, being captured, and terminating on Earth, especially (not meant to be
contradictory with the orbital well-distributed observation :)) on a year when
the "main mass of the parent body", i.e. 2003 EH1", is nearest Earth, as the
above conjecture?

Here are the comments from your good paper referenced that have me even
further mulling this over, while the DUST distribution seems to have uniformized
through the whole orbit in very short timing according to the paper and other
sources, observers, etc., a disintegration event would likely still have any
larger pieces nearer the main body, right? Paper:

"There is no evidence that the dust density increases near the comet
position. Together with the distributions shown in Figure 4, this defines the
distribution of dust in the stream in three dimensions. From that, a mass of about
1x1013 kg is calculated for grains in the range 10-6 to 1000 g [12]. This
compares to earlier estimates of a factor of 10-100 less [references in 12], on
account of a wider dispersion in q. That is significantly more dust than typically
lost from a typical Jupiter-family comet in a single return (~1010 kg), and
implies either a deposition for a period of ~ 1000 years, or debris from a
recent cometary breakup.

The Quadrantid meteoroids are cometary in nature, given that they appear to
be fragile with numerous flares from the sudden release of small fragments and
relatively high penetration depths in Earth's atmosphere [13]. The meteors end
at altitudes similar to those of Perseids (from 109P/Swift-Tuttle) and Lyrids
(from C/Thatcher) and do not penetrate as deep as the higher density Geminid
meteoroids, cometary dust that has been sintered in a low q orbit and is
thought to be more representative of compact asteroidal dust (Figure 5)."

If you had any additional comments, that would be very interesting...!!! For
example, a little dreaming if there were a relation: could St. Marks EH5,
anhydrous, be an example of a proto-Venusian cometary object, remanent highly
elliptical orbit later condemened mostly to the asteriod belt after some
gravitational interaction? Does 2003 EH1 show water absorption peaks?

Saludos
Doug Dawn
Mexico

En un mensaje con fecha 12/22/2003 5:28:41 AM Mexico Standard Time,
marco.langbroek_at_wanadoo.nl escribe:

> Asunto: [meteorite-list] re: Bootids (Quadrantids) meteor shower and 2003
> EH1
> Fecha: 12/22/2003 5:28:41 AM Mexico Standard Time
> De: marco.langbroek_at_wanadoo.nl
> Para: meteorite-list_at_meteoritecentral.com
> Enviado por Internet
>
> Hello Doug and others,
>
> >1. I can't resist asking if anyone can correlate any Jan 3 or (Jan 4?)
> falls,
> >or there about. This should be a fresh research question.
>
> I don't think it is likely that the Quadrantids produce meteorites. The
> dynamic behaviour of these meteors points out that they consist of very
> fragile material that destroys completely in the upper atmosphere.
> Quadrantids do not penetrate deep into the atmosphere, their average
> end-height is for example higher up than for Geminids.
>
> The early part of the story of the identification of 2003 EH1 as the
> possible parent of the Quadrantids (and as a dormant comet) is one of a
> definite succes of amateur meteor observers, and I am happy to have played a
> (minor) part in that. It used to be thought that the Quadrantids were a very
> old stream, derived many thousands of years ago from comet Machholz therough
> a series of orbital evolution events. It were detailed Quadrantid meteor
> orbits obtained by our Dutch Meteor Society in 1995 (by means of
> triangulation of photograpic and video records) which showed that this could
> not be: the scatter in the orbits was much too small for that. The scatter
> in fact suggested that the stream was not much older than 500 years or so.
> So the link with Machholz was rejected and it was proposed that the real
> parent was a still undiscovered dormant comet, hiding as a yet undiscovered
> asteroid in an orbit closely resembling that of the meteor stream. I was
> co-author to that paper:
>
> Jenniskens P., Betlem H., De Lignie M., Langbroek M. and Van Vliet M.:
> Meteor stream activity V. The Quadrantids, a very young stream. Astronomy &
> Astrophysics 327 (1997), 1242-1252.
>
> With the discovery of 2003 EH1, it now seems we were right. :-)
>
> For those interested in more details on the link between 2003 EH1 and the
> Quadrantids: a pdf of a paper to appear in WGN (J. International Meteor
> Organization) by Peter Jenniskens with more info can be get at:
>
> http://aio.arc.nasa.gov/~leonid/EH1.pdf
>
> To return to your question: don't look for meteorites connected to 2003 EH1.
> This celestial body does not likely provide us with meteorites: but it's
> debris generates a spectacular short peak of meteors each year on January
> 4th. This peak is very sharp and high activity (up to 150/hr) last very
> short, a few hours only. The stream is one of the most narrow streams in
> existence, and together with the Geminids the richest annual stream. It is a
> difficult stream to observe due to its short peak (which has to coincide
> with your local pre-dawn hours, as in the evening the radiant of the stream
> is too low in the sky) and general bad northern hemisphere weather early
> January. We captured the peak in full glory from the Netherlands in 1995,
> and that was quite an event!
>
> - Marco
>
> ------
> Marco Langbroek
> Dutch Meteor Society (DMS)
> Leiden, the Netherlands
> 52.15896 N, 4.48884 E (WGS 84)
>
> meteorites_at_dmsweb.org
> http://home.wanadoo.nl/marco.langbroek
>

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Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
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<HTML><HTML>Hello Marco, I'm am very pleased yo=
u caught and responded to my post. 
 
Keeping in mind falls on Jan. 3, and their types: 
 
Lost City H5 (Oklahoma, US 1970) 
Warrenton CO3 (Missouri, US 1903) 
St. Marks EH5 (South Africa 1877) 
2003 EH1 and St. Mark's EH5 a coincidence:) 
 
And from the JPL toolkit, I checked out 138 years (1873 to 2010) of 2003 EH1=
position: 
 
1877 at 1.02 AU from Sun and 0.53 AU from Earth 
1903 at 3.64 AU from Sun and 4.54 AU from Earth 
1970 at 1.97 AU from Sun and 2.15 AU from Earth 
 
And, if I rank proximity of 2003 EH1 for the 138 years, the top nine are the=
only ones under one AU from Earth, in date order.  I find it interesti=
ng that 1877, the date of St. Marks EH5) is the second closest approach in t=
he 138 years. 
 
1877 0.52 
1904 0.61 
1915 0.85 
1926 0.23 
1937 0.67 
1981 0.74 
1992 0.56 
2003 1.11 
2004 3.77 
 
For 138 years: 
Average =3D 4.46 
Sigma =3D 1.63 
min. 0.23 
max. 6.12 
 
Rank in 138 years of closest approach to Earth (1926 was closest at 0.23 AU)=
: 
 
1877 (2) 
1903 (55) 
1970 (17) 
 
So, please check out St. Marks EH5 as a footnote somewhere, and if you have=20=
nothing to do, Lost City H5  -which Elton had some potentially good add=
itional comments... 
 
I read your comments, and appreciate them, and also made a first pass at the=
e-preprint for which you gave the link.  I am still left wondering, th=
ough after reading the following paragraphs from that paper, which conform t=
hat material seems to be distributed within the evolving orbit evenly (no du=
st peak at "parent body"), and that you are operating under theories of a to=
o close for comfort Jupiter encounter perhaps causing a very significant eje=
ction of material.  If that is indeed the case, and if dust is well dis=
tributed which causes the "common" Quadrantids we see on a well timed mornin=
g, when we pass that perihelion point, what is to prevent a larger chunk her=
e and there in the orbit escaping, being captured, and terminating on Earth,=
especially (not meant to be contradictory with the orbital well-distributed=
observation :)) on a year when the "main mass of the parent body", i.e. 200=
3 EH1", is nearest Earth, as the above conjecture? 
 
Here are the comments from your good paper referenced that have me even furt=
her mulling this over, while the DUST distribution seems to have uniformized=
through the whole orbit in very short timing according to the paper and oth=
er sources, observers, etc., a disintegration event would likely still have=20=
any larger pieces nearer the main body, right?  Paper: 
 
"There is no evidence that the dust density increases near the comet positio=
n. Together with the distributions shown in Figure 4, this defines the distr=
ibution of dust in the stream in three dimensions. From that, a mass of abou=
t 1x1013 kg is calculated for grains in the range 10-6 to 1000 g [12]. This=20=
compares to earlier estimates of a factor of 10-100 less [references in 12],=
on account of a wider dispersion in q. That is significantly more dust than=
typically lost from a typical Jupiter-family comet in a single return (~101=
0 kg), and implies either a deposition for a period of ~ 1000 years, or debr=
is from a recent cometary breakup. 
 
The Quadrantid meteoroids are cometary in nature, given that they appear to=20=
be fragile with numerous flares from the sudden release of small fragments a=
nd relatively high penetration depths in Earth's atmosphere [13]. The meteor=
s end at altitudes similar to those of Perseids (from 109P/Swift-Tuttle) and=
Lyrids (from C/Thatcher) and do not penetrate as deep as the higher density=
Geminid meteoroids, cometary dust that has been sintered in a low q orbit a=
nd is thought to be more representative of compact asteroidal dust (Figure 5=
)." 
 
If you had any additional comments, that would be very interesting...!!!&nbs=
p; For example, a little dreaming if there were a relation: could St. Marks=20=
EH5, anhydrous, be an example of a proto-Venusian cometary object, remanent=20=
highly elliptical orbit later condemened mostly to the asteriod belt after s=
ome gravitational interaction?  Does 2003 EH1 show water absorption pea=
ks? 
 
Saludos 
Doug Dawn 
Mexico 
 
 
 
 
En un mensaje con fecha 12/22/2003 5:28:41 AM Mexico Standard Time, marco.la=
ngbroek_at_wanadoo.nl escribe: 
 
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT=
: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">Asunto: [meteorite-list] re:=
Bootids (Quadrantids) meteor shower and 2003 EH1 
Fecha: 12/22/2003 5:28:41 AM Mexico Standard Time 
De: <A HREF=3D"mailto:marco.langbroek_at_wanadoo.nl">marco.langbroek@wanadoo.n=
l</A> 
Para: <A HREF=3D"mailto:meteorite-list_at_meteoritecentral.com">meteorite-list=
_at_meteoritecentral.com</A> 
Enviado por Internet 
 
Hello Doug and others, 
 
>1.  I can't resist asking if anyone can correlate any Jan 3 or (Jan=
4?) 
falls, 
>or there about.  This should be a fresh research question. 
 
I don't think it is likely that the Quadrantids produce meteorites. The 
dynamic behaviour of these meteors points out that they consist of very 
fragile material that destroys completely in the upper atmosphere. 
Quadrantids do not penetrate deep into the atmosphere, their average 
end-height is for example higher up than for Geminids. 
 
The early part of the story of the identification of 2003 EH1 as the 
possible parent of the Quadrantids (and as a dormant comet) is one of a 
definite succes of amateur meteor observers, and I am happy to have played a=
 
(minor) part in that. It used to be thought that the Quadrantids were a very=
 
old stream, derived many thousands of years ago from comet Machholz therough=
 
a series of orbital evolution events. It were detailed Quadrantid meteor 
orbits obtained by our Dutch Meteor Society in 1995 (by means of 
triangulation of photograpic and video records) which showed that this could=
 
not be: the scatter in the orbits was much too small for that. The scatter<B=
R>
in fact suggested that the stream was not much older than 500 years or so.<B=
R>
So the link with Machholz was rejected and it was proposed that the real 
parent was a still undiscovered dormant comet, hiding as a yet undiscovered<=
BR>
asteroid in an orbit closely resembling that of the meteor stream. I was 
co-author to that paper: 
 
Jenniskens P., Betlem H., De Lignie M., Langbroek M. and Van Vliet M.: 
Meteor stream activity V. The Quadrantids, a very young stream. Astronomy &a=
mp; 
Astrophysics 327 (1997), 1242-1252. 
 
With the discovery of 2003 EH1, it now seems we were right.   :-)<=
BR>
 
For those interested in more details on the link between 2003 EH1 and the<BR=
>
Quadrantids: a pdf of a paper to appear in WGN (J. International Meteor 
Organization) by Peter Jenniskens with more info can be get at: 
 
http://aio.arc.nasa.gov/~leonid/EH1.pdf 
 
To return to your question: don't look for meteorites connected to 2003 EH1.=
 
This celestial body does not likely provide us with meteorites: but it's 
debris generates a spectacular short peak of meteors each year on January<BR=
>
4th. This peak is very sharp and high activity (up to 150/hr) last very 
short, a few hours only. The stream is one of the most narrow streams in 
existence, and together with the Geminids the richest annual stream. It is a=
 
difficult stream to observe due to its short peak (which has to coincide 
with your local pre-dawn hours, as in the evening the radiant of the stream<=
BR>
is too low in the sky) and general bad northern hemisphere weather early 
January. We captured the peak in full glory from the Netherlands in 1995,<BR=
>
and that was quite an event! 
 
- Marco 
 
------ 
Marco Langbroek 
Dutch Meteor Society (DMS) 
Leiden, the Netherlands 
52.15896 N, 4.48884 E (WGS 84) 
 
meteorites_at_dmsweb.org 
http://home.wanadoo.nl/marco.langbroek 
</BLOCKQUOTE> 
 
</HTML>
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